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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Forwarding from Jisc Repositories.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Repositories discussion list [mailto:JISC-REPOSITORIES@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Arthur Sale<br><b>Sent:</b> 12 January 2017 06:27<br><b>To:</b> JISC-REPOSITORIES@JISCMAIL.AC.UK<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [GOAL] OA Overview January 2017<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Let me summarize what I know Stevan.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><ul style='margin-top:0cm' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>All Australian universities (even privately-funded ones) can get federal research grants. As part of the eligibility requirements, all publicly-funded research has to be collected by each university’s Research Office and made available for federal audit. In all cases, I believe that this means deposit of the articles in an Internet-connected server. Quaintly, we call such objects RODAs (Research Output Digital Assets)!<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>To answer question 1, I do not know. We do at the University of Tasmania as you would expect (see <a href="http://ecite.utas.edu.au/rmdb/ecite/q/ecite_home">http://ecite.utas.edu.au/rmdb/ecite/q/ecite_home</a>) but I don’t survey all the others regularly as I used to do. I would expect about 30-50%.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Are the repositories registered in ROARMAP? Again, I don’t know. However, I will do a post to the Australian OA discussion group (and copy this email to it).<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>You did not ask, but are they included in the BASE search engine? I think my university is, but again, this is a question for each university. As you know they are obstinate and lazy beasts.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>In the acquittal of each research grant (the final report), the recipients are supposed to document whether the RODAs were made open access, and if not to explain why not. I do not know whether this is complied with or enforced.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>As far as I know there are no aggregated statistics. Each university does its own thing.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>I attribute this state to (a) you, me and all the other great OA advocates who have joined the debate over the years, and (b) savvy leaders of our two Australian research councils, and now including the Chief Scientist who advises the Prime Minister. We run a community oa email group, but it is not over-active.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>I don’t know about aggregated compliance statistics, and indeed I do not see how easy it would be to measure them. The question is ‘how do you measure the whole output to compare with the deposited?’ when everything is supposed to be deposited? Please have a look at <a href="http://ecite.utas.edu.au/rmdb/ecite/q/ecite_about">http://ecite.utas.edu.au/rmdb/ecite/q/ecite_about</a>, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Best wishes<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Arthur Sale<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> Repositories discussion list [<a href="mailto:JISC-REPOSITORIES@JISCMAIL.AC.UK">mailto:JISC-REPOSITORIES@JISCMAIL.AC.UK</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stevan Harnad<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 12 January 2017 02:06 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:JISC-REPOSITORIES@JISCMAIL.AC.UK">JISC-REPOSITORIES@JISCMAIL.AC.UK</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [GOAL] OA Overview January 2017<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear Arthur,</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Thanks for the kind words, and congratulations on 100% self-archiving in Australia! (I had no idea!)</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Although my comment was posted at the point of your contribution to the thread, I was not actually responding to you, but to various points made in the thread. I know we agree.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>But I do have two questions:</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>(1) Do the Australian universities use your (our) Button during the OA embargo? </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>(2) Are the Australian mandates registered in ROARMAP? (They need to be known to be amulated.)</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>(3) Are the compliance statistics available?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Best wishes,</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Stevan</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:-webkit-standard;color:black'>Sale, A., Couture, M., Rodrigues, E., Carr, L. and Harnad, S. (2014) </span><span lang=EN-US><a href="http://eprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/18511/"><span style='font-family:-webkit-standard'>Open Access Mandates and the "Fair Dealing" Button</span></a></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:-webkit-standard;color:black'>. In: Dynamic Fair Dealing: Creating Canadian Culture Online (Rosemary J. Coombe & Darren Wershler, Eds.) </span><span lang=EN-US><a href="http://eprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/18511/"><span style='font-family:-webkit-standard'>http://eprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/18511/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Arthur Sale <<a href="mailto:ahjs@ozemail.com.au" target="_blank">ahjs@ozemail.com.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Keep up the emphasis, Stevan, as appropriate. I totally agree that the double-payment argument is absurd, as I wrote. And yes there is added value in published books, including but not limited to preservation. I did not need the spray.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>As a result of the OA movement (including your and my efforts) all Australian universities have 100% of their articles self-archived. Yes <u>all</u> and <u>100%</u>, for audit purposes. That’s been the case for many years now.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Unfortunately they are not all open access immediately, but they are available within the institution on one server, and the academics <u>all</u> comply. Their departmental standing and funding would otherwise suffer.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>It is a small victory, to be sure, but the inability of people to think outside the box of their scholarly training is a huge problem. It helps that we have a few people at the decision levels in Australia who are ICT-savvy and more flexible. I think the same is true of Canada.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Best wishes</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Arthur Sale</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> <a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" target="_blank">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" target="_blank">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stevan Harnad<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 11 January 2017 06:05 AM<br><b>To:</b> Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:scholcomm@lists.ala.org" target="_blank">scholcomm@lists.ala.org</a>; jisc-repositories<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [GOAL] OA Overview January 2017</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>Not to put too fine a point on it (and this reminds me why I've tired of the fray):<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>If double-payment for subscriptions (first pay for the research, then pay again to buy it "back") had been a valid argument against having to pay for subscriptions, <i>it would have applied to books too, just as to journals</i>: "Why should institutions pay the cost of researching and writing their books, only to have to buy them "back"?<b> Answer</b>: because books, unlike journal articles, are <i>not author give-aways</i>, written solely for usage, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>uptake and impact. Books are also written for (potential) royalties (and there might possibly still be some added value in producing and purchasing a hard copy).<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>If the double-payment argument is not valid for books, then it's not valid for peer-reviewed journal articles either. (And this is true no matter what perspective one takes on the "double-payment": the institution, the funder, the funder's funder (the tax-payer) or the whole planet.)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>The valid argument is that <i>peer-reviewed journal articles are give-away research</i>: No one should have to pay for access to it, neither its author nor its users. The only thing still worth paying for in the OA era is the peer review (Fair-Gold OA).<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>(Preservation is a red herring in this context. So is "journal impact factor.")<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>No lengthy "re-education" program for scholars is needed to enlighten them that they should self-archive all their papers. The message is too simple (and over 20 years seems more than enough for any scholarly "re-education" progamme!) If the diagnosis of laziness, timidity or stupidity does not explain why they don't self-archive, find another descriptor. It's happening, but it's happening far too slowly. And institutional (and funder) self-archiving (Green OA) mandates still look like the only means of accelerating it (and forcing publishers journals to downsize and convert to Fair Gold). (Paying instead pre-emptively for Fool's Gold is unaffordable, unsustainable and unnecessary -- and that's the real double-payment.)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US>Stevan Harnad</span></b><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 4:46 PM, Arthur Sale <<a href="mailto:ahjs@ozemail.com.au" target="_blank">ahjs@ozemail.com.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>This is angels dancing on the point of a pin!.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Universities subscribe to journals or buy books to either (a) get other people’s research outputs, or (b) to acquire a canonic authorized version of their own research in print. Yes, it sounds silly, but librarians value preservation.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>If a subscription gives you back some of what you’ve already got, well who cares? Not the author, nor the institution, nor the publisher. I often get freebies that I don’t need, but that does not invalidate my original purchase, nor reduce its value to me.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Arthur Sale</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Also tilling other fields, but not asleep either. Think functionally!</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>------------------------------------------------------------------</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Arthur Sale PhD</span></b><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Emeritus Professor of Computer Science</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>School of Engineering and ICT </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A3A3A;background:white'>| </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Faculty of Science, Engineering and Technology</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>University of Tasmania</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Private Bag 65</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>HOBART TASMANIA 7001</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>M +61 4 1947 1331</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><a href="http://orcid.org/0000-0001-7261-8035" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>http://orcid.org/0000-0001-7261-8035</span></a></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><img border=0 width=200 height=42 style='width:2.0833in;height:.4375in' id="m_7611867230474791325m_212691190926946027514204D60-070B-4725-ADE9-41D494A638D2" src="cid:image001.png@01D26CF2.9AB7D4F0" alt="cid:CA66235E-F79F-4ECD-A612-0376BD33B152"></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>CRICOS 00586B</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> Repositories discussion list [mailto:<a href="mailto:JISC-REPOSITORIES@JISCMAIL.AC.UK" target="_blank">JISC-REPOSITORIES@JISCMAIL.AC.UK</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stevan Harnad<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, 9 January 2017 23:14 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:JISC-REPOSITORIES@JISCMAIL.AC.UK" target="_blank">JISC-REPOSITORIES@JISCMAIL.AC.UK</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: OA Overview January 2017</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 5:30 AM, David Prosser <<a href="mailto:david.prosser@rluk.ac.uk" target="_blank">david.prosser@rluk.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#333333'>SH:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#333333'> (2) No, the institution that pays for the research output is not paying a second time to buy it back. Institutional journal subscriptions are not for buying back their own research output. They already have their own research output. They are buying <em><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>in</span></em> the research output of <em><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>other</span></em> institutions, and of other countries, with their journal subscriptions. So no double-payment there, even if you reckon it at the funder- or the tax-payer-level instead of the level of the institution that pays for the subscription.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>DP:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> So, when UCL (say) purchases access to Elsevier articles through ScienceDIrect (say) Elsevier removes all of the UCL articles from the bundle and prices accordingly? Of course not. The institution is purchasing articles by researchers across the world’s, <i>including</i> its own.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>To repeat: UCL (and everyone) has their own article output. Getting access to their own article output is not why researchers publish, nor why institutions subscribe to journals. It is to get access to the articles of others.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>So that version of the simplistic double-payment plaint is, and remains, invalid. (And it, and its (il)logic predates OA by at least a decade.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>DP:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> SBut I agree with (12)</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>But (12) is about OA, not the old double-payment argument against subscriptions (which, by the way, if it had been valid would also have applied to royalty-based output, including the institutional purchase of books by its own authors!). The essence of the case for OA is and has always been that (refereed) research is an author <i>giveaway</i>, written only for researcher uptake, usage and impact, not for royalty revenue. We keep forgetting this, with this misleading notion of "double-payment" (for subscription access).<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>There is certainly double-payment in the case of OA (subscription plus Fool's Gold publication fees) as well as double-dipping (in the case of hybrid Fool's Gold). But that is not at all the kind of double-payment that the old argument against subscriptions was (and is) about.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>Stevan Harnad (tilling other fields, but not asleep)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US><br>_______________________________________________<br>GOAL mailing list<br><a href="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org">GOAL@eprints.org</a><br><a href="http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal" target="_blank">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div></body></html>