<div dir="ltr"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><b>Jean-Claude Guédon:</b> Alicia Wise always speaks with a forked tongue! I wonder how much she is paid to practise this dubious art?</blockquote>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><b>Richard Poynder:</b> I am not aware that Alicia Wise has ever been anything other than polite to members of this list. It does not show open access in a good light that every time she posts to the list her comments generate the kind of response we see below.</blockquote>
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<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">I wonder what is going on? Why are we getting lessons in etiquette on GOAL rather than discussing matters of substance? </p>
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<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">Yes, Alicia is paid to keep on talking Elsevier double-talk. Yes, she does it politely. That's not the point. The point is that <u>it is double-talk</u>: </p><p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)"><br></p><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><b>Alicia Wise:</b> "All our authors... have both gold and green Open Access publishing options.<i>" </i></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)"><br></p></blockquote><span style="color:rgb(35,35,35);font-family:Arial;font-size:13px">What that </span><span style="color:rgb(35,35,35);font-family:Arial;font-size:13px"><u>means</u></span><span style="color:rgb(35,35,35);font-family:Arial;font-size:13px"> is </span><div><i style="color:rgb(35,35,35);font-family:Arial;font-size:13px"><br></i></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><i style="color:rgb(35,35,35);font-family:Arial;font-size:13px">"You may either (1) pay (always over and above what you pay for subscriptions overall, always heavily, and sometimes even doubly) for (gold) OA or else you may (2) wait (for twelve or more months*) for (green) OA</i><span style="color:rgb(35,35,35);font-family:Arial;font-size:13px">." </span></div></blockquote><div>
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<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">That is indeed fork-tongued double-talk*: Say what sounds like one thing but mean another, and say it politely. (Why rile the ones you are duping?)</p><p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)"><br></p></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><p style="margin:0px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)"><font size="1">*Actually, it's double-double-talk, and, </font><span style="font-size:x-small">as pointed out many times before,</span><span style="font-size:x-small"> if Elsevier authors were sensible they would realize that they can provide immediate, unembargoed green OA if they wish, across Elsevier's never-ending attempts to modify their</span><font size="1"> <a href="https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=GJhyVJa4I8qC8QfFsIHIDg&gws_rd=ssl#q=site:openaccess.eprints.org+(Elsevier+double-talk)">pseudo-legal language</a> </font><span style="font-size:x-small">to sound both permissive and prohibitive."</span></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div>
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<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">So, yes, Richard is right -- and others (including myself: google “<a href="https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=c3GCVszXO4qN8QfIv5fIBQ&gws_rd=ssl#q=harnad+pogo">harnad pogo</a>”) have already said it time and time again in this self-same Forum -- that Elsevier is not the only one to blame. There are the dupers (Elsevier) and the duped (universities and their researchers). We all know that. </p><p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">But it is not a co-conspiracy -- much as conspiratorial thinking comes in handy at lean times when there is nothing new to talk about. </p>
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<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">So although the dupees have themselves to blame for allowing themselves to be duped, that does not put them on the same plane of culpability as the dupers. After all, it is the dupers who gain from the duping, and the dupees who lose, whether or not they have themselves to blame for falling for it.</p>
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<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">Blaming the victim, as Richard does, below, also has a <a href="http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/harnad/Hypermail/Amsci/0364.html">long predigree</a> in this Forum, but I will not rebut it again in detail. The short answer is that adopting effective Green OA mandates (rather than vilifying the victims for their foolishness) is the remedy for all the damage the victims have unwittingly allowed to be done them for so long.</p><p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">And stop fussing about metrics. They too will sort themselves out completely once we have universally mandated (and provided) green OA.</p><p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)"><br></p><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><b>Richard Poynder:</b> What Jean-Claude’s criticism of large publishers like Elsevier and Wiley omits is the role that the research community has played in their rise to power, a role that it continues to play. In fact, not only has the research community been <b>complicit</b> [emphasis added] in the rise and rise of the publishing oligarchy that Jean-Claude so deprecates, but one could argue that it created it — i.e. this oligarchy is a creature of its own making. </blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> After all, it is the research community that funds these publishers, it is the research community that submits papers to these publishers (and signs over copyright in the process), and it is the research community that continues to venerate the brands (essentially a product of the impact factor) that allow these publishers to earn the high profits that Jean-Claude decries.</blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> And by now seeking to flip this oligarchy’s journals to OA the research community appears to be intent on perpetuating its power (and doubtless profits).</blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> One might therefore want to suggest that Jean-Claude’s animus is misdirected.</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
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<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">So are Richard's reproaches.</p><p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">Your increasingly bored archivangelist,</p><p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">Stevan Harnad</p>
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<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 2:42 AM, Wise, Alicia (ELS-OXF)</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(18,85,204)"><span style="color:rgb(35,35,35)">> <<a href="mailto:A.Wise@elsevier.com"><span style="color:rgb(18,85,204)">A.Wise@elsevier.com</span></a><mailto:<a href="mailto:A.Wise@elsevier.com"><span style="color:rgb(18,85,204)">A.Wise@elsevier.com</span></a>>> wrote:</span></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> Hi Thomas -</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> All our authors, no matter where in the world they are, have both gold and</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> green Open Access publishing options.</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> With best wishes for a peaceful and relaxing holiday season,</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> Alicia</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> Elsevier Limited. Registered Office: The Boulevard, Langford Lane,</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> Kidlington, Oxford, OX5 1GB, United Kingdom, Registration No. 1982084,</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> Registered in England and Wales.</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> Translation of Alicia’s Xmas message:</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> "Let them pay (gold fees) or let them wait (green embargoes)."</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> I add only that they can (if they have any sense at all) completely ignore</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> all of Elsevier’s absurd, incoherent, and ever-changing</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(18,85,204)"><span style="color:rgb(35,35,35)">> double-talk<<a href="http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?serendipity%5Baction%5D="><span style="color:rgb(18,85,204)">http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?serendipity%5Baction%5D=</span></a></span></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> search&serendipity%5BsearchTerm%5D=systematic&serendipity%5BsearchButton%5D=</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> %3E> about green and make their refereed, revised final drafts green OA</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> immediately upon acceptance for publication -- by self-archiving them.</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> With best wishes for a peaceful and relaxing holiday season,</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> Stevan</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> On 22 Dec 2015, at 17:39, Thomas Hervé Mboa Nkoudou</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(18,85,204)"><span style="color:rgb(35,35,35)">> <<a href="mailto:thomasmboa@gmail.com"><span style="color:rgb(18,85,204)">thomasmboa@gmail.com</span></a><mailto:<a href="mailto:thomasmboa@gmail.com"><span style="color:rgb(18,85,204)">thomasmboa@gmail.com</span></a>>> wrote:</span></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> On this post,</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(18,85,204)"><span style="color:rgb(35,35,35)">> <a href="http://www.scidev.net/global/publishing/news/elsevier-african-open-access-jo"><span style="color:rgb(18,85,204)">http://www.scidev.net/global/publishing/news/elsevier-african-open-access-jo</span></a></span></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> urnal.html,</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> Elsevier plans an African Open Journals, using the Gold voice. But for me,</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> it is not the right way for us (Africa).</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> I want all GOAL members to join me in an open letter adressed to Elsevier,</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> with the objective to claim the full green voice for Africa.</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(35,35,35)">> Since I am an African searcher, your support will be helpful</p>
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