<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 26, 2015, at 3:26 PM, Thom Blake <<a href="mailto:thom.blake@york.ac.uk" class="">thom.blake@YORK.AC.UK</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hello Stevan,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">HEFCE does not require immediate OA but it does, very reasonably,</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">expect immediate 'discoverability' on deposit (i.e. acceptance).</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">This is where the conflict comes in. The 3 months should be enough</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">time for publication but sadly this isn't always the case. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Nope, it’s deposit of the full-text and “discoverability" of the metadata (Title, author, etc.) </div><div>on acceptance (+ 3). Nothing whatsoever to do with the Ingelfinger Rule.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Difficult to understand how there can be misunderstanding of something so clear and simple.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Best wishes,</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Stevan</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">All the best,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Thom</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"></div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif" class="">-- </span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif" class=""><div class="gmail_signature" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;font-family:'arial black',sans-serif;color:rgb(102,102,102)" class=""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=""><font size="1" class=""><font class=""></font></font></font></p><font size="1" class="">Thom Blake<br class="">Research Support Librarian</font><br class=""><font size="1" class=""><font size="1" class=""><font size="1" class="">Information Services<br class=""></font>University of York</font><br class="">LFA/215 Harry Fairhurst Building<br class="">Heslington, York, YO10 5DD<br class="">+44 (0)1904 324170<br class=""></font></div><div class=""><font size="1" class="">ORCID: 0000-0001-5507-9738<br class=""></font></div><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><img src="http://www.york.ac.uk/media/abouttheuniversity/supportservices/informationdirectorate/images/cse/CSEUK%20Primary%20(r)%20RGB-80x95.jpg" class=""><br class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 13pt; background-color: transparent;" class=""><span style="color:rgb(255,0,255)" class=""></span></span></p><font size="1" class="">Web: <a href="http://www.york.ac.uk/library/info-for/researchers/" target="_blank" class="">www.york.ac.uk/library/info-for/researchers/</a><span style="color:rgb(255,0,255);line-height:13pt;background-color:transparent" class=""><br class=""></span><span style="line-height:13pt;background-color:transparent" class=""><span style="color:rgb(255,0,255)" class=""><span style="" class=""></span></span></span></font><p class=""><font size="1" class=""><span style="" class="">Email disclaimer: </span><span style="color:rgb(17,85,204);text-decoration:underline" class=""><a href="http://www.york.ac.uk/docs/disclaimer/email.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" style="text-decoration:none" class="">http://www.york.ac.uk/docs/disclaimer/email.htm</a></span></font></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On 26 November 2015 at 17:21, Stevan Harnad <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:amsciforum@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">amsciforum@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr" class="">1. HEFCE requires immediate deposit (not immediate OA). so it is not in conflict with <i class="">Nature's</i> & <i class="">Science's</i> PR practices. (<a href="http://www.sherpa.ac.uk/romeo/search.php?jtitle=nature&issn=0028-0836&zetocpub=Nature+Publishing+Group&romeopub=Nature+Publishing+Group&fIDnum=%7C&mode=simple&la=en&version=&source=journal&sourceid=4008" target="_blank" class="">N has a 6-month embargo</a> on OA; <a href="http://www.sherpa.ac.uk/romeo/search.php?jtitle=science&issn=0036-8075&zetocpub=American+Association+for+the+Advancement+of+Science&romeopub=American+Association+for+the+Advancement+of+Science&fIDnum=%7C&mode=simple&la=en&version=&source=journal&sourceid=11114" target="_blank" class="">S has none</a>.)<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">2. In any case, the 3-month grace-period would have been plenty of time for N & S to do their PR even if the HEFCE rule had been immediate OA (which it is not).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">3. This "<a href="http://cogprints.org/1703/" target="_blank" class="">Ingelfinger Rule</a>" (designed to enhance paid circulation, not to enhance access) is a rule better honored in the breach: Very, very little good scholarship or science is done via PR rather than substance, especially in the online era.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">SH<br class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 8:20 AM, Clement-Stoneham Geraldine <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:GERALDINE.CLEMENT-STONEHAM@headoffice.mrc.ac.uk" target="_blank" class="">GERALDINE.CLEMENT-STONEHAM@headoffice.mrc.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-GB" link="blue" vlink="purple" class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">Danny, <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">Some journals like to control the way information is being published about new papers, and therefore impose a strict press embargo period (another embargo, nothing to do with green OA embargo period). This sometime referred to as the “Ingelfinger rule” (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingelfinger_rule" target="_blank" class="">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingelfinger_rule</a>).<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">All of this is well orchestrated, with a press pack made available so that coverage is reflecting accurately the research, and is advertised to authors as the added value offered by the publishers if they chose to submit their paper to them. This explains why you often see papers published in Nature, or Science, all making the headlines of daily press on the same day. The downside of course is that they do act as “gagging orders”, which can make it tricky for researchers to talk about their research once the paper has been accepted, but not yet published (which can go for weeks/months).<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">One of the issues with the HEFCE requirement to add article metadata to a repository at the acceptance stage, was that this could inadvertently breach such publishers’ embargo by release some (even if not much) information about the paper ahead of time. I believe this is what your researcher is concerned about. I am not sure that at this stage there is a way around it, but it would deserve a wider conversation. Less traditional journals such as eLife have deliberately done away with such embargo, and indeed encourage authors to discuss their research as soon as they wish, which seems to be better aligned with “open science” principles.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">You’ll find more details for the journal you named here<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""><a href="http://www.nature.com/authors/policies/embargo.html" target="_blank" class="">http://www.nature.com/authors/policies/embargo.html</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""><a href="http://www.nejm.org/page/author-center/embargo" target="_blank" class="">http://www.nejm.org/page/author-center/embargo</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""><a href="http://www.cell.com/cell/authors#prepub" target="_blank" class="">http://www.cell.com/cell/authors#prepub</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">and eLife’s policy<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""><a href="http://elifesciences.org/elife-news/authors-the-media-and-elife" target="_blank" class="">http://elifesciences.org/elife-news/authors-the-media-and-elife</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">Best wishes<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">Geraldine<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:gray" class="">Geraldine Clement-Stoneham<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:gray" class="">Knowledge and Information Manager<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:gray" class="">Medical Research Council<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:gray" class="">Tel: +44 </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:gray" class="">(0) 207 395 2272<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:gray" class="">Mobile: +44 79 00 136 319<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:gray" class=""><a href="mailto:geraldine.clement-stoneham@headoffice.mrc.ac.uk" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:blue" class="">geraldine.clement-stoneham@headoffice.mrc.ac.uk</span></a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:gray" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:gray" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p></div><br clear="both" class="">
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