Dear<div><br></div><div>I also appreciate such a discussion.</div><div><br></div><div>There are some fundamentals problem with the current situation in scientific edition.<br><br>For me, even though there are numerous free journasl, most of the prominents ones are still owned by too few large companies that makes too much money. This is simply unethical and unacceptable anymore.</div><div><br></div><div>Elsevier self did more thant 4.3 billions USD in 2014, with a margin larger thant 30 %, and a net increase of more than 5 % for many years ... while the resto of the world have been in a "financial crisis" since 2008</div><div><br></div><div>The amounts are just huge. I see them as a private tax on world research that is also an impediment on the developpement of science and life preservation. No less than that. </div><div><br></div><div>What is the total of these sums ? Can we imagine what could be achived if these amounts were dedicated to research only and given to the developpement of science ?</div><div><br></div><div>I view our efforts related to OA so far as marginal efforts. They do not change the system fundamentally, nor enough.<br><br></div><div>There is in my view no other way that to put these companies out of business. It is possible and doable.</div><div><br></div><div>Today, the system holds because the researchers themselves value the impact criteria ... that ar supported by many financing institutions, universities amongst them. This is a vicious circle that need to be abolished.</div><div><br></div><div>The proposal of Pierre-Louis Lions, president of the Ecole normale supérieure, professor at the College de France is a good one I think :</div><div><br></div><div>1/ refuse any publication list in CV and grant request</div><div>2/ change the definition of "papers" : a paper would become "anything published anywere publically on the internet, and would include comments to other publications and sources code of software"</div><div>3/ dump the journals that request APC at least larger than some dizains of euros or dollars</div><div>4/ for grant or positions, request that the canditate indicates which of his 3 (for juniors) or 5</div><div>(for seniors) papers (in the new sense) are his best contributions to science, and ask for written justification of such claims,</div><div>5/ dump any quantitative considerations for qualitative ones, but for the last sorting of candidates if needed</div><div><br></div><div>All this would work already without much problems if the institutions themselves decide to change the rules.</div><div><br></div><div>New journals (like the one mentionned by Tim Gowers) could still exist but be different : they could be post publication selection journal, be electronic only and hence be nearly gratis (free in the sense "no cost" or nearly none)</div><div><br></div><div>I would very much like to elaborate on such proposal with you and discuss this here or even better publically on the internet.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Nicolas Pettiaux</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Le sam 3 oct 2015 à 17:55, Heather Morrison <Heather.Morrison@uottawa.ca> a écrit :<br>
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<div>hi Eric,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is good to see a discussion of this topic. Some preliminary thoughts:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The journal-level peer review process involved in the SSHRC Aid to Scholarly Journals is a type of model I suggest others look at. The primary questions have nothing to do with metrics, but rather are qualitative, whether a high standard of review is met.
There likely are similar models elsewhere - I am sure that one needs to fit within the academic community to be part of Scielo, for example. Research to gather information on what people are doing would be helpful. Regional or discipline-based approaches would
make sense.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I question the need for a universal list, and for metrics-based approaches. Whether a contribution to our knowledge is sound and important and whether it has an immediate short-term impact are two completely separate questions. My perspective is that work
is needed on the impact of metrics-based approaches. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The important questions for scholars in any discipline should be "what to read" and "where to publish", not any metric, traditional or alternative. I think we scholars ourselves should take responsibility for the lists and recommending journals for indexing
rather than leaving such questions to the commercial sector.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Heather</div>
<div><br>
On Oct 3, 2015, at 11:25 AM, "Éric Archambault" <<a href="mailto:eric.archambault@science-metrix.com">eric.archambault@science-metrix.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hi List<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hi list<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">My previous efforts rapidly went off-topic, so I’m making a second effort to reload the questions to the list with the hope of receiving more input on this
important topic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Back to our still largely unaddressed problem, I am re-inviting people to contribute ideas, focussing away from individuals.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">What is the best way to deal with the question of assessing the practices of publishers and journals (for subscription only, hybrid and open access journals)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Should it be done through a negative list listing journals/publishers with deceptive practices?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Should it be done through a positive list of best-practice journals?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Should it be done through an exhaustive list comprising all scholarly quality-reviewed journals (peer-review is somewhat restrictive as different fields have
different norms).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Personally, I think the latter is the way to go. Firstly, there is currently no exhaustive list of reviewed scholarly journals. Though we sent astronauts to
the moon close to half a century ago, we are still largely navigating blind on evidence-based decision-making in science. No one can confidently say how many active journals there are the world over. We need an exhaustive list. Secondly, I think journals and
publishers should not be examined in a dichotomous manner; we need several criteria to assess their practice and the quality of what is being published.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">What metrics do we need to assess journal quality, and more specifically`:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-What metrics of scholarly impact should be used (that is, within the scholarly community impact – typically the proprietary Thomson Journal Impact Factor has
been the most widely used even though it was designed at the same time as we sent astronauts to the moon and has pretty much never been updated since -- full disclosure: Science-Metrix is a client of Thomson Reuters’s Web of Science raw data; competing indicators
include Elsevier’s SNIP and SCIMAGO’s SJR, both computed with Scopus data and available for free for a few years but with comparatively limited uptake -- full disclosure: Science-Metrix is a client of Elsevier’s Scopus raw data; note also that bibliometrics
practices such as CWTS, iFQ and Science-Metrix compute their own version of these journal impact indicators using WoS and/or Scopus data)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-What metrics of outreach should be used (e.g. use by the public, government, enterprises – typically these are covered by so-called “alternative metrics”)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-What metrics of peer-review and quality-assessment effectiveness should be used?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-What other metrics would be relevant?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Perhaps before addressing the above questions we should examine these two questions:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Why do we need such a list?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">What are the use cases for such a list?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The following “how” questions are very important too:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-How should such a list be produced?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-How will it be sustainable?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Finally the “who” question:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Who should be contributing the list?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> -A Wikipedia-sort of crowdsourced list?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> -Should only experts be allowed to contribute to the list? Librarians? Scholars? Anyone?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> -A properly funded not-for-profit entity?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> -Corporate entities vying for a large market share?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thank you for your input,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Éric<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">Eric Archambault, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">President and CEO | Président-directeur général<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7F7F7F">Science-Metrix & 1science<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">1335, Mont-Royal E<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES-MX" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">Montréal, QC H2J 1Y6</span><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">
- </span><span lang="ES-MX" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">Canada</span><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">E-mail:
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:eric.archambault@science-metrix.com" title="mailto:eric.archambault@science-metrix.comblocked::mailto:eric.archambault@science-metrix.com"><span lang="ES-MX" style="color:#548DD4">eric.archambault@science-metrix.com</span></a></span><u><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0066CC;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">Web: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.science-metrix.com/"><span lang="FR-CA" style="color:#548DD4">science-metrix.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#548DD4"><a href="http://1science.com">1science.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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