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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">One wonders if the dramatic decline, from 2001 to 2012, in both the number published articles (692
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">à</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">288) & the subscription price ($12598
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">à</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> $5931) had anything to do with Nuclear Physics B participating in SCOAP3?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dana L. Roth</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Caltech Library 1-32</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">1200 E. California Blvd. Pasadena, CA 91125</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">626-395-6423 fax 626-792-7540</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:dzrlib@library.caltech.edu">dzrlib@library.caltech.edu</a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://library.caltech.edu/collections/chemistry.htm" target="_blank">http://library.caltech.edu/collections/chemistry.htm</a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> goal-bounces@eprints.org [mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stevan Harnad<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 20, 2013 5:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [GOAL] Re: Elsevier, Flip your journals to Gold OA and/or offer an acceptable Hybrid Model<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333"><a href="http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/421-SCOAP3-and-the-pre-emptive-flip-model-for-Gold-OA-conversion.html"><span style="color:black;border:none windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in;text-decoration:none">SCOAP3
and the pre-emptive "flip" model for Gold OA conversion</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></h4>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333"><a href="http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/1066-Fools-Gold-Publisher-Ransom-for-Freedom-from-Publisher-Embargo.html"><span style="color:black;border:none windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in;text-decoration:none">Fool's
Gold: Publisher Ransom for Freedom from Publisher Embargo?</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></h4>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 3:35 AM, Donat Agosti <<a href="mailto:agosti@amnh.org" target="_blank">agosti@amnh.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear Wouter</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Though you refer to Wall Street Journal that infers journalistic scrutiny, it is in fact just a press
release of Elsevier and thus, isn’t this following all the discussion on GOAL only part of the reality? It might be interesting to the readers to link this press release to the publication of
<a href="http://t.co/l3AHKTNU1Z" target="_blank">Elsevier’s business</a> figures.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You could similarly add another
<a href="http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-12/pp-tot121813.php" target="_blank">
press release</a> that announces yet another deal regarding open access in a much more sophisticated way, providing through the domain specific semantic markup an even greater service to the society, and at a much lower rate. Similarly to SOAP3, it is free
because the publisher and libraries got together to make if free. The publisher and editor is the Museum für Naturkunde Berlin who delegated the publishing to Pensoft . Why not compare these two business models, where a new publisher enters the field which
has not the overhead and monopoly of Elsevier and thus can dictate the prize of the deal irrespective of the underlying real costs?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-12/pp-tot121813.php" target="_blank">http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-12/pp-tot121813.php</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In both cases time will tell - but at simple press release does certainly not provide a balanced
reply needed at this moment.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Donat</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Von:</span></b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" target="_blank">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" target="_blank">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a>]
<b>Im Auftrag von </b>Gerritsma, Wouter<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Thursday, December 19, 2013 10:21 PM<br>
<b>An:</b> 'Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)'<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> [GOAL] Re: Elsevier, Flip your journals to Gold OA and/or offer an acceptable Hybrid Model</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear G.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Elsevier is doing exactly what you ask for</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/PR-CO-20131217-903941.html" target="_blank">http://online.wsj.com/article/PR-CO-20131217-903941.html</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">At least two of these are financed through SCOAP(3). That might be worth a discussion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Yours sincerely</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Wouter</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" target="_blank">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a> [<a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" target="_blank">mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Graham Triggs<br>
<b>Sent:</b> donderdag 19 december 2013 16:05<br>
<b>To:</b> Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [GOAL] Re: Elsevier, Flip your journals to Gold OA and/or offer an acceptable Hybrid Model</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">On 18 December 2013 12:47, <<a href="mailto:christian.gutknecht@ub.unibe.ch" target="_blank">christian.gutknecht@ub.unibe.ch</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">1. Flip your journals to Gold OA. Start with high ranked journals, because<br>
as you know most researchers still care. Although the true cost of<br>
publishing remains unclear (<a href="http://doi.org/kxz" target="_blank">http://doi.org/kxz</a>), I think it's safe to say,<br>
that with an APC between $1500 and $3000 you still can make solid profit.<br>
Probably not as much as with the subscription model, but still reasonable.<br>
And if you really have a high ranked journal you can indeed increase the<br>
price to whatever the demand on researcher side will support.<br>
<br>
Others publisher are doing it:<br>
<a href="http://eu.wiley.com/WileyCDA/PressRelease/pressReleaseId-109721.html" target="_blank">http://eu.wiley.com/WileyCDA/PressRelease/pressReleaseId-109721.html</a><br>
Why not Elsevier?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Every single one of those are association / society journals. So this wouldn't be a commercial decision by a publisher, but a political one by the association
/ society. After all, you can't really advocate open access, if your own journals aren't.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Simply making a hybrid journal into open access only would not be sustainable, unless a significant proportion of the articles are already utilising the open
access option.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">2. Offer an acceptable hybrid model. Avoid double dipping on an<br>
institutional/consortium/national level (not on a global level as you do<br>
now). We explicitly requested Elsevier to do so in Switzerland. However</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Elsevier refused to come up with a solution that reduces our subscription<br>
price according the amount of paid hybrid of our authors. Elsevier argued,<br>
subscription and OA are two independent things and shouldn't be mixed<br>
financially. This might be true for Elsevier, where local sales manager<br>
obviously are not aware, what's going on about OA in the own company. But<br>
it isn't true for any institution which has to care about its budget.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">I realise local budgetary issues are a concern. And if you do not have outside funding for research that includes the publication cost of an OA option, then making
use of an OA option is going to be impossible whilst you are paying a subscription.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">But this is not "double dipping". It's just a question of institution / national affordability. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">How<br>
can an institution justify additional hybrid costs in a budget if only a<br>
tiny share will immediately come back with reduced global list prices.<br>
This may temporary work in UK, but I¹m quite sure they soon will realize<br>
that Hybrid without reducing the direct subscription cost is not<br>
sustainable.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">In theory, Open Access publishing ought to be justifiable in it's own right, in terms of doing the right thing and maximizing the benefit of funding in research.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Where the money comes from, how you allocate funds, etc. are a different matter, and it may well be that given the funding that you have, an Open Access option
may only be an illusion of a choice.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">But Hybrid is reducing the direct subscription cost - for Elsevier, it appears to be a very minor activity in their hybrid journals, so it is having minimal effect.
But if you look at Embo Journal, various Springer hybrid journals - there are documented cases of the subscription costs not just increasing by a lesser amount, but actually reducing in price.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">And yes, other publishers are doing it:<br>
<a href="http://www.rsc.org/publishing/librarians/goldforgold.asp" target="_blank">http://www.rsc.org/publishing/librarians/goldforgold.asp</a><br>
Why not Elsevier?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">The publishing arm of a royal society. So, it is a political decision to expedite the transition to Open Access.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">And you are right, there is no reason why Elesvier couldn't use the subscription income as a limited promotion to drive the adoption of Open Access.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">(Note that under this model, as Open Access publishing increases, the subscription amount and the subsidy for next year's OA publishing would decrease. So the
each year's expenditure would be made up of a decreasing amount of subscription, and an increasing amount of Open Access APC payments).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">There is no reason why they can't offer such a promotion, but there is also no reason - for them - why they should. That isn't just an issue about revenue / profit
either - there will be agreements in place that may make this tricky, there is investment and re-organisation that would be needed to cope with the transition, and then there are still people questioning trust of paying to publish instead of paying to read.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Whilst we are all very vocal about wanting Open Access, it still doesn't quite translate to the entire community just yet.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">G</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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