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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=282570422-14122013><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>I'm not sure why J-C thinks I'm against opening up access as
widely as possible. I've never said that, and I don't think it. I
want it to be sustainable, but whether that means any role for publishers as we
know them only time will tell.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=282570422-14122013><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=282570422-14122013><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>I merely pointed out that Beall's article did, in fact, raise
some worthwhile points...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=282570422-14122013><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=282570422-14122013><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Sally</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Sally Morris</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2 face=Arial>South House, The Street, Clapham,
Worthing, West Sussex, UK BN13 3UU</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Tel: +44 (0)1903
871286</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Email:
sally@morris-assocs.demon.co.uk</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> goal-bounces@eprints.org
[mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Jean-Claude
Guédon<BR><B>Sent:</B> 14 December 2013 20:53<BR><B>To:</B>
goal@eprints.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [GOAL] Re: Jeffrey Beall Needlessly
Compromises Credibility of Beall's List<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Sally,<BR><BR>Re-use and text mining are not the same thing. If I
distribute my own articles in my own classroom, this is re-use and it relies
only on eye contact, not machine-reading. That scholars are not yet focused on
text-mining is simply the result, of inertia and force of habit. It is coming,
but it is coming slowly. However, slowness does not prevent from thinking ahead,
and many publishers certainly are. The "executable paper" bounty offered by
Elsevier a couple of years ago shows another publishing angle which, for the
moment, is not much on the scholars' radars, but it will be. Creating new
"societies of texts" through various kinds of algorithms will be the same.
Publishers are thinking about these issues. Some OA advocates are doing the
same, not on the basis of surveys that tend to emphasize the past and the
familiar, but rather in a future-looking perspective.<BR><BR>Regarding an
earlier post of your that seemed to complain that OA advocates are using too
narrow and too strict a definition of open access, you might consider that the
publishing industry, for its part, has done its utmost to confuse issues by
throwing all kinds of new terms. Muddying the waters and making the whole scene
as illegible to regular scientists as is possible, all the while raising the
fear of various legal interventions in the background (e.g. Michael Mabe
recently in Berlin, alluding to the possibility of ant-trust actions in reaction
to libraries coordinating too well for the industry's taste) cannot be treated
as if it did not happen or had not been planned and engineered with one aim:
slow down acceptance by all possible means, and try taking control of the
movement to exploit it the publishers' way. <BR><BR>Also, this is the first time
that I see people being criticized simply for trying to be precise and
unambiguous. I guess mathematicians must be extremely rigid, unreasonable, and
uncooperative people...<BR><BR>Finally, the focus of OA is not to destroy the
publishing industry. Saying this amounts to some form of paranoia. Some OA
advocates, including myself, are very angry at some members of the publishing
industry, but these are individuals, not the OA movement. Some OA supporters try
to imagine alternatives to the present publishing system. This means
competition, I guess. But it may be that the publishing industry does not like
competition, true competition. Some os us strongly feel that research
communication comes first, and the publishing industry a distant second, so that
the publishing industry should not consider scholarly communication as if it
were a gold mine ready to be pillaged at will (45% profit, to my mind, is
pillaging, and pillaging a lot of public money, to boot). But perhaps I am a
little too precise here... <IMG border=0 alt=:-)
src="cid:282570422@14122013-2FFF" align=middle> <BR><BR>As for scholars, they do
not have to be forced by mandates. Just tell them, as was done in Belgium, that
you will be evaluated on the basis of only what is available in the right
depository, and everything will fall into place. Now, researchers paid by
universities or research centres cannot object to being evaluated, and to
reasonable rules of evaluation such as deposit your publications in this box if
you want to have them taken into account.<BR><BR>Open access is beneficial to
researchers, and that is obvious. But being obvious is not necessarily
self-evident. To be obvious, one needs to look at studies on citation
advantages, assess them, etc. But if local evaluations do not pay attention to
these advantages, why should a scholar pay great attention so long as promotions
and grants keep coming on the basis of fallacious metrics such as impact factors
of journal titles.<BR><BR>To meditate further on the distinction between obvious
and self-evident, one only needs to rehearse all the arguments that were being
adduced by opponents to both the American and French revolutions: democracy was
obviously better than absolute monarchy, at least for most people; but the
elites threw enough arguments into the air to make it less than self-evident for
quite a while.<BR><BR>Finally, I would like you to think seriously and deeply
about what Jacinto Dávila wrote in response to you. Developing nations are hit
in a number of nasty ways by a communication system that seems to think that
knowledge is not fit for Third World brains, or that Third World brains are good
enough only if they focus on problems defined by rich countries. Make no mistake
about this: the anger in those parts of the world where 80% of humanity lives is
rising and what the consequences of this anger will be, I cannot foretell, but
they will likely be dire and profound. If I were in your shoes, I would be
scared.<BR><BR>Jean-Claude Guédon<BR><BR><BR><BR>Le vendredi 13 décembre 2013 à
13:14 +0000, Sally Morris a écrit :
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>I don't deny that
re-use (e.g. text mining) is a valuable attribute of OA for some scholars;
interestingly, however, it is rarely if ever mentioned in surveys which
ask scholars for their own unprompted definition of OA. That suggests to
me that it is not fundamental in most scholars' minds.</FONT></FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>The few responses to
my original posting have all focused on whether the 'credo' of the BBB
declarations is or is not fundamental to the underlying concept of OA. I
find it interesting that no one has commented at all on the two main points I
was trying to make (perhaps not clearly enough):</FONT></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>1)
The focus of OA seems to be, to a considerable extent, the destruction of the
publishing industry: note the hostile language of, for example, Peter
M-R's 'occupying power'</FONT></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>2)
It still seems curious to me (as to Beall) that scholars have to be forced, by
mandates, to comply with a behaviour which is considered be self-evidently
beneficial to them</FONT></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>Does this mean that
everyone agrees with me on both points?! ;-)</FONT></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>Sally</FONT></FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><FONT size=2>Sally Morris</FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><FONT size=2>South House, The Street, Clapham,
Worthing, West Sussex, UK BN13 3UU</FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><FONT size=2>Tel: +44 (0)1903 871286</FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><FONT size=2>Email:
sally@morris-assocs.demon.co.uk</FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<HR align=center>
<BR><B><FONT size=2>From:</FONT></B><FONT size=2> goal-bounces@eprints.org
[mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org] </FONT><B><FONT size=2>On Behalf Of
</FONT></B><FONT size=2>Penny Andrews</FONT><BR><B><FONT
size=2>Sent:</FONT></B><FONT size=2> 12 December 2013 17:04</FONT><BR><B><FONT
size=2>To:</FONT></B><FONT size=2> Global Open Access List (Successor of
AmSci)</FONT><BR><B><FONT size=2>Subject:</FONT></B><FONT size=2> [GOAL] Re:
Jeffrey Beall Needlessly Compromises Credibility of Beall's
List</FONT><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">Sally, for many scholars (who do currently exist, not
just in the future) textmining is their main research activity. Open
licensing to do that unimpeded isn't some theoretical paradise, it's what
they need right now to do their work.<BR><BR>On Thursday, December 12, 2013,
Sally Morris wrote: </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#0000ff>I agree completely that 'green' and 'gold'
(however tightly or loosely defined) are the means, not the end</FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#0000ff>But I still feel that the BOAI definition
may be an unnecessarily tight/narrow definition of the end: optimal
scholarly exchange, as you put it (or unimpeded access to research articles
for those who need to read them, as I would perhaps more narrowly describe
it)</FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#0000ff>Sally</FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>Sally Morris </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>South House, The Street, Clapham, Worthing, West Sussex,
UK BN13 3UU </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>Tel: +44 (0)1903 871286 </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>Email: <A
href="javascript:_e({},' cvml',' sally@morris-assocs.demon.co.uk');">sally@morris-assocs.demon.co.uk</A>
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR align=center>
<BR><B>From:</B> <A
href="javascript:_e({},' cvml',' goal-bounces@eprints.org');">goal-bounces@eprints.org</A>
[mailto:<A
href="javascript:_e({},' cvml',' goal-bounces@eprints.org');">goal-bounces@eprints.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Jan Velterop<BR><B>Sent:</B> 12 December 2013
13:44<BR><B>To:</B> Global Open Access List (Successor of
AmSci)<BR><B>Subject:</B> [GOAL] Re: Jeffrey Beall Needlessly
CompromisesCredibilityofBeall's List<BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>But Sally, so-called 'green' and 'gold' are the means. The BOAI
definition is an articulation of the end, the goal. Of course, if you
navigate the ocean of politics and vested interests of science publishing,
you need to tack sometimes to make progress against the wind. That's
permissible, even necessary. But it doesn't change the intended destination
on which a good sailor keeps his focus. If that's religion, anything is.
(Which may be the case :-)). </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>One mistake made by some OA advocates is to elevate the means to
the goal. Another one is to confuse the temporary course of tacking with the
overall course needed to reach the destination. <BR><BR>In the larger
picture, OA itself is but a means, of course. To the goal of optimal
scholarly knowledge exchange. And so on, Russian doll like. But that's a
different discussion, I think </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Jan Velterop </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR>On 12 Dec 2013, at 12:03, "Sally Morris"
<sally@morris-assocs.demon.co.uk>
wrote:<BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><FONT color=#0000ff>What I'm saying is that OA may
have done itself a disservice by adhering so rigidly to tight
definitions. A more relaxed focus on the end rather than the means
might prove more appealing to the scholars for whose benefit it is
supposed to exist</FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><FONT color=#0000ff>Sally</FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">Sally Morris </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">South House, The Street, Clapham, Worthing, West
Sussex, UK BN13 3UU </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">Tel: +44 (0)1903 871286
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">Email: sally@morris-assocs.demon.co.uk
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<HR align=center>
<BR><B>From:</B> goal-bounces@eprints.org
[mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>David
Prosser<BR><B>Sent:</B> 12 December 2013 08:37<BR><B>To:</B> Global Open
Access List (Successor of AmSci)<BR><B>Subject:</B> [GOAL] Re: Jeffrey
Beall Needlessly Compromises CredibilityofBeall's
List<BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">Let me get this right, Jean-Claude mentioning the
Budapest Open Access Initiative to show that re-use was an integral part
of the original definition of open access and not some later
('quasi-religeous') addition as Sally avers. And by doing so he is
betraying some type of religious zeal?
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">One of the interesting aspect of the open access
debate has been the language. Those who argue against OA have been
keen to paint OA advocates as 'zealots', extremists, and impractical
idealists. I've always felt that such characterisation was an
attempt to mask the paucity of argument. </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">David </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="CITE"><PRE>_______________________________________________
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<A href="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org">GOAL@eprints.org</A>
<A href="http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</A>
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%">
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD>-- <PRE>Jean-Claude Guédon
Professeur titulaire
Littérature comparée
Université de Montréal
</PRE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BODY></HTML>