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Please see comments in the body of the text.<BR>
<BR>
Le vendredi 29 novembre 2013 à 17:06 +0000, l.hurtado@ed.ac.uk a écrit :
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>
A few responses to Guedon's comments:
--The "gold" approach here in the UK = author-pay, whatever it may
mean elsewhere.
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
The UK is just one country in the world. Open Access is a world-wide phenomenon. Its objeective is universal.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>
--If many journals offer "free" services to authors, that's because
they have an income-stream to pay the people who provide the services,
whether by some form of subsidy (and I don't know of many in my field)
or by subscription fees. For these services to be provided will
either require these income sources or the author-pay model.
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
The alternatives you present amount to saying that publishing costs something, which no one denies. However, the important distinction is who pays. Research, particularly in the humanities and social sciences is funded by public funds. In many countries, scholarly journals in HSS are also subsidized so that referring only to the UK where the situation may be a little different does not provide very useful information if a broader perspective is adopted.<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>
--We can extrapolate roughly what this would cost authors: It would
be at least multiple(s) of the single-article charge being levied
already by, e.g., OUP and Brill for "gold" option article publication
(in each case £2000 or more for articles of ca. 20 pp. printed).
--I fail to see how any sort of mandate would be of any comfort and
assistance to authors, whether first-time or established. I repeat:
Surely a fundamental rule should be that any convention should have
the confidence and support of the constituency affected. The
alternative is tyranny.
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
SSHRC, the Canadian Research Council in charge of funding SSH research and studies, provides subsidies for HSS journals on a per-article basis. The sum provided is 850 Canadian dollars per article. Now, most of the subsidized journals maintain both subscriptions and printed versions. Getting rid of the latter will largely compensate for the former. This gives a much better estimates of what a SSH article may cost to process and publish on the web than prices provided by OUP and Brill as the latter also include some level of profit.<BR>
<BR>
Before speaking of tyranny - a strong word that should not be devalued by casual use in any case - one might also consider the constraints inflicted upon young authors when they cannot find a publisher for their first book, thus putting an entire career at risk. The American Historical Association (through the voice of Robert Darnton) and the MLA (through the voice of Steven Greenblatt) have expressed grave concerns about this situation. Finding ways to solve such a problem is important, and it may also involve the necessity to reform our evaluation methods. For example, a book published only electronically (but selected with the same peer-review process as a printed book), should not be demeaned on account of the used medium. If young scholars had to choose between an OA, electronic only, monograph, and no monograph at all, I am pretty sure where the confidence and support of the constituency would lie.<BR>
<BR>
Incidentally, the electronic vs. print valuation issue reminds me of the battles around the relative value of manuscripts and print in Renaissance Florence and Venice - these two cities held opposite views on these matters. We are still leaving in the age of digital incunabula, to use Gregory Crane's felicitous phrase, and many people, alas, are still stuck in the print world and its peculiar, not to say irrational, logo-based hierarchies.<BR>
<BR>
Jean-Claude Guédon<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>
Larry Hurtado
Quoting Guédon Jean-Claude <<A HREF="mailto:jean.claude.guedon@umontreal.ca">jean.claude.guedon@umontreal.ca</A>> on Fri,
29 Nov 2013 10:24:32 +0000:
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> There a number of points to be made regarding Hurtado's message:</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> 1. The "horrid 'Gold'" must refer to the author-pay gold. This is </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> not the whole of gold, only a subset. Gold ciovers a wide variety of </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> financing schemes.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> 2. The figures given for "horrid gold" - incidentally, I like this </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> term applied to author-pay business models - are real, but not </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> general. Thousands of journals offer gratis services to authors and </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> free use by readers because, simply, they are subsidized in one </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> fashion or another.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> 3. Even if the cost of £2000+ (Sterling) were accepted for articles, </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> the cost of monographs could not be derived from a simplistic linear </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> extrapolation based on page numbers.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> 4. Young scholars who may not enjoy Hurtado's stature in the world, </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> would be delighted to have their first work published, if only </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> electronically. Moreover, they would probably prefer open access to </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> ensure maximum visibility and use, provided the evaluation process </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> in force within their universities does not treat electronic </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> publishing as inferior.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> 5. In many countries, e.g. in Canada, subsidies exist to support the </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> publishing of monographs. This precedent opens the door to possible </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> extensions to full OA-publishing support, for example for a young </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> scholar's first book.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> Jean-Claude Guédon</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> ________________________________________</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> De : <A HREF="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org">goal-bounces@eprints.org</A> [<A HREF="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org">goal-bounces@eprints.org</A>] de la part </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> de <A HREF="mailto:l.hurtado@ed.ac.uk">l.hurtado@ed.ac.uk</A> [<A HREF="mailto:l.hurtado@ed.ac.uk">l.hurtado@ed.ac.uk</A>]</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> Envoyé : jeudi 28 novembre 2013 05:40</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> À : Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> Objet : [GOAL] Re: Monographs</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> Further to Steven's comment, as a scholar in the Humanities, in which</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> the book/monograph is still THE major medium for high-impact</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> research-publication, mandating a major change such as OA (even</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> "Green", to say nothing of the horrid "Gold"), would be opposed by at</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> least the overwhelming majority (and perhaps even unanimously) in the</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> disciplines concerned. And the reasons aren't primarily author-income</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> that might accrue from traditional print-book publication. For many</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> European-type small-print-run monographs, sold almost entirely to</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> libraries, often no royalty accrues to author. Even serious books</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> intended primarily for other scholars in the field and published by</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> university presses and/or reputable trade publishers, the royalties</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> will still be modest in comparison with, e.g., popular fiction works.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> My best-selling book, sold ca. 5,000 hardback and has sold now over</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> another 3000 in paperback. Several thousand in royalties, but,</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> seriously, my main aim in writing books has been to get them into the</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> hands of as many fellow scholars in my field as possible, and also</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> then into the hands of advanced students and other serious readers.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> I've typically gone with a highly-respected and well-established</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> "trade" publisher, mainly because they combine excellent editing,</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> marketing, and a readiness to price the books affordably (e.g., a 700</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> page hardback at $55 USD, because they committed to a 5000 copy</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> initial print-run.)</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> For an equivalent service to be provided, someone has to pay. "Gold"</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> access articles are costing now £2000+ (Sterling) each, with</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> page-lengths of ca. 20 print pages. Imagine what an author would have</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> to pay for a 150-200 page monograph. And don't tell me that</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> everything will be OK, because university libraries will hand over</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> their acquisitions budget for this. It won't happen. Moreover, what</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> about "independent" and retired scholars, who continue to produce</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> important works?</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> And the "Green" approach means no one pays, and so no service</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> (editing, and other production services, including promotion) will be</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> done free? Think again.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> But the fundamental thing is this: Any "mandate" that does not have</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> the enthusiasm of the constituency is tyranny. And neither "Green"</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> nor "Gold" access has any enthusiasm among Humanities scholars as may</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> be applied to books/monographs.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> Larry Hurtado</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> Quoting Stevan Harnad <<A HREF="mailto:amsciforum@gmail.com">amsciforum@gmail.com</A>> on Mon, 25 Nov 2013</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> 17:09:56 -0500:</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>> Sandy, I'm all for OA to monographs, of course.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>> It's *mandating* OA to monographs that I am very skeptical about, because</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>> there is unanimity among researchers about desiring -- even if not daring,</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>> except if mandated, to provide -- OA to peer-reviewed journal articles,</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>> whereas there is no such unanimity about monographs.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>> Not to mention that prestige publishers may not yet be ready to agree to it.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>> So mandate Green OA to articles first; that done, mandate (or try to</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>> mandate) whatever else you like. But not before, or instead.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>> Meanwhile, where the author and publisher are willing, there is absolute no</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>> obstacle to providing OA to monographs today, unmandated.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>> Stevan Harnad</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>> On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Sandy Thatcher <<A HREF="mailto:sgt3@psu.edu">sgt3@psu.edu</A>> wrote:</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Stevan continues to be hung up on the idea that some academic authors</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> still have visions of fame and fortune they'd like to achieve through</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> publishing books in the traditional manner, so he believes that the time</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> for OA in book publishing has not yet arrived. But perhaps a simple</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> terminological distinction may suffice to place this problem in proper</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> perspective. Academic books may be divided into two types: monographs and</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> trade books. Monographs, by definition, are works of scholarship written</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> primarily to address other scholars and are therefore unlikely to attract</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> many, if any, readers beyond the walls of academe. Trade books encompass a</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> large category that includes, as one subset, nonfiction works written by</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> scholars but addressed not only to fellow scholars but also to members of</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> the general public.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> There is an easy practical way to distinguish the two: commercial trade</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> publishers (as distinct from commercial scholarly publishers that do not</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> aim at a trade market) have certain requirements for potential sales that</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> guarantee that monographs will never be accepted for publication. It is</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> true that the authors of monographs, published by university presses and</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> commercial scholarly publishers, are sometimes paid royalties. But these</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> amounts seldom accumulate to large sums (unless the monographs happen to</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> become widely adopted in classrooms as course assignments--a phenomenon</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> that happens less these days when coursepacks and e-reserves permit use of</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> excerpts for classroom assignments). Thus not much is sacrificed,</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> financially speaking, by publishing these books OA. And, indeed, a scholar</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> may have more to gain, in terms of increased reputation from wider</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> circulation that may translate into tenure and promotion, which are vastly</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> more financially rewarding over the long term than royalties are ever</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> likely to be from monograph sales.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Also, of course, financial opportunities do not need to be sacrificed</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> completely by OA if the CC-BY-NC-ND license is used for monographs,</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> preserving some money-generating rights to authors even under OA.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> It also needs to be said that even trade authors can benefit from OA, as</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> the successes of such authors as Cory Doctorow, Larry Lessig, Jonathan</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Zittrain, and others have demonstrated, with the free online versions of</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> their books serving to stimulate print sales.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Thus I believe Stevan is not being quite pragmatic enough in recognizing</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> that the time has arrived for OA monograph publishing also, not just OA</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> article publishing.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Sandy Thatcher</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> At 12:44 PM -0500 11/19/13, Stevan Harnad wrote:</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Ann Okerson (as</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> interviewed<<A HREF="http://poynder.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/ann-okerson-on-state-of-open-access.html">http://poynder.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/ann-okerson-on-state-of-open-access.html</A>>by Richard Poynder) is committed to licensing. I am not sure </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> whether</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> the</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> commitment is ideological or pragmatic, but it's clearly a lifelong</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> ("asymptotic") commitment by now.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> I was surprised to see the direction Ann ultimately took because -- as I</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> have admitted many times -- it was Ann who first opened my eyes to (what</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> eventually came to be called) "Open Access."</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> In the mid and late 80's I was still just in the thrall of the scholarly</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> and scientific potential of the revolutionarily new online medium</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> itself ("Scholarly</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Skywriting"<<A HREF="http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/05/sky-writing-or-when-man-first-met-troll/239420/">http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/05/sky-writing-or-when-man-first-met-troll/239420/</A>>),</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> eager to get everything to be put online. It was Ann's work on the serials</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> crisis that made me realize that it was not enough just to get it all</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> online: it also had to be made accessible (online) to all of its potential</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> users, toll-free -- not just to those whose institutions could afford the</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> access-tolls (licenses).</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> And even that much I came to understand, sluggishly, only after I had</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> first realized that what set apart the writings in question was not that</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> they were (as I had first naively dubbed them)</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> "esoteric<<A HREF="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subversive_Proposal">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subversive_Proposal</A>>"</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> (i.e., they had few users) but that they were* peer-reviewed research</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> journal articles*, written by researchers solely for impact, not for</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> income <<A HREF="http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/harnad/Tp/resolution.htm#1.1">http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/harnad/Tp/resolution.htm#1.1</A>>.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> But I don't think the differences between Ann and me can be set down to</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> ideology vs. pragmatics. I too am far too often busy trying to free the</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> growth of open access from the ideologues (publishing reformers, rights</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> reformers (Ann's "open use" zealots), peer review reformers, freedom of</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> information reformers) who are slowing the progress of access to</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> peer-reviewed journal articles (from "now" to "better") by insisting only</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> and immediately on what they believe is the "best." Like Ann, I, too, am</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> all pragmatics (repository software, analyses of the OA impact advantage,</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> mandates, analyses of mandate effeciveness).</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> So Ann just seems to have a different sense of what can (hence should) be</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> done, now, to maximize access, and how (as well as how fast). And after her</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> initial, infectious inclination toward toll-free access (which I and others</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> caught from her) she has apparently concluded that what is needed is to</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> modify the terms of the tolls (i.e., licensing).</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> This is well-illustrated by Ann's view on SCOAP3: "All it takes is for</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> libraries to agree that what they've now paid as subscription fees for</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> those journals will be paid instead to CERN, who will in turn pay to the</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> publishers as subsidy for APCs."</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> I must alas disagree with this view, on entirely pragmatic -- indeed</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> logical -- grounds: the transition from annual institutional subscription</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> fees to annual consortial OA publication fees is an incoherent, unscalable,</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> unsustainable Escherian scheme that contains the seeds of its own</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> dissolution, rather than a pragmatic means of reaching a stable</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> "asymptote": Worldwide, across all disciplines, there are P institutions, Q</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> journals, and R authors, publishing S articles per year. The only relevant</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> item is the article. The annual consortial licensing model -- reminiscent</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> of the Big Deal -- is tantamount to a global oligopoly and does not scale</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> (beyond CERN!).</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> So if SCOAP3 is the pragmatic basis for Ann's "predict[ion that] we'll see</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> such journals evolve into something more like 'full traditional OA' before</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> too much longer" then one has some practical basis for scepticism -- a</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> scepticism Ann shares when it comes to "hybrid Gold" OA journals -- unless</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> of course such a transition to Fool's Gold is both mandated and funded by</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> governments, as the UK and Netherlands governments have lately</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> proposed<<A HREF="http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/1073-The-Journal-Publisher-Lobby-in-the-UK-Netherlands-Part-I.html">http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/1073-The-Journal-Publisher-Lobby-in-the-UK-Netherlands-Part-I.html</A>>,</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> under the influence of their publishing lobbies! But the globalization of</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> such profligate folly seems unlikely on the most pragmatic grounds of all:</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> affordability. (The scope for remedying world hunger, disease or injustice</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> that way are marginally better -- and McDonalds would no doubt be</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> interested in such a yearly global consortial pre-payment</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> deal<<A HREF="https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=cr&ei=oI6LUpG8LPLCyAHT5IHQDg#q=McNopoly+harnad">https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=cr&ei=oI6LUpG8LPLCyAHT5IHQDg#q=McNopoly+harnad</A>>for their Big </FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Macs</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> too?)</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> I also disagree (pragmatically) with Ann's apparent conflation of the</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> access problem for journal articles with the access problem for books.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> (It's the inadequacy of the "esoteric" criterion again. Many book authors</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> -- hardly pragmatists -- still dream of sales & riches, and fear that free</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> online access would thwart these dreams, driving away the prestigious</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> publishers whose imprimaturs distinguish their work from vanity press.)</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Pragmatically speaking, OA to articles has already proved slow enough in</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> coming, and has turned out to require mandates to induce and embolden</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> authors to make their articles OA. But for articles, at least, there is</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> author consensus that OA is desirable, hence there is the motivation to</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> comply with OA mandates from authors' institutions and funders. Books,</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> still a mixed bag, will have to wait. Meanwhile, no one is stopping those</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> book authors who want to make their books free online from picking</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> publishers who agree?></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> And there are plenty of pragmatic reasons why the librarian-obsession --</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> perhaps not ideological, but something along the same lines -- with the</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Version-of-Record is misplaced when it comes to access to journal articles:</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> The author's final, peer-reviewed, accepted draft means the difference</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> between night and day for would-be users whose institutions cannot afford</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> toll-access to the publisher's proprietary VoR.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> And for the time being the toll-access VoR is safe [modulo the general</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> digital-preservation problem, which is not an OA problem], while</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> subscription licenses are being paid by those who can afford them. CHORUS</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> and SHARE have plenty of pragmatic advantages for publishers (and</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> ideological ones for librarians), but they are vastly outweighed by their</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> practical disadvantages for research and researchers -- of which the</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> biggest is that they leave access-provision in the hands of publishers (and</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> their licensing conditions).</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> About the Marie-Antoinette option for the developing world -- R4L -- the</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> less said, the better. The pragmatics really boil down to time: the access</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> needs of both the developing and the developed world are pressing. Partial</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> and makeshift solutions are better than nothing, now. But it's been "now"</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> for an awfully long time; and time is not an ideological but a pragmatic</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> matter; so is lost research usage and impact.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Ann says: "Here's the fondest hope of the pragmatic OA advocate: that we</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> settle on a series of business practices that truly make the greatest</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> possible collection of high-value material accessible to the broadest</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> possible audience at the lowest possible cost - not just lowest cost to end</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> users, but lowest cost to all of us."</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Here's a slight variant, by another pragmatic OA advocate: "that we settle</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> on a series of research community policies that truly make the greatest</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> possible collection of peer-reviewed journal articles accessible online</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> free for all users, to the practical benefit of all of us."</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> The online medium has made this practically possible. The publishing</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> industry -- pragmatists rather than ideologists -- will adapt to this new</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> practical reality. Necessity is the Mother of Invention.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Let me close by suggesting that perhaps something Richard Poynder wrote is</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> not quite correct either: He wrote "It was [the] affordability problem that</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> created the accessibility problem that OA was intended to solve."</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> No, it was the creation of the online medium that made OA not only</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> practically feasible (and optimal) for research and researchers, but</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> inevitable.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> *Stevan Harnad*</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> --</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Sanford G. Thatcher</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> 8201 Edgewater Drive</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Frisco, TX 75034-5514</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> e-mail: <A HREF="mailto:sgt3@psu.edu">sgt3@psu.edu</A></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Phone: (214) 705-1939</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Website: <A HREF="http://www.psupress.org/news/SandyThatchersWritings.html">http://www.psupress.org/news/SandyThatchersWritings.html</A></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> Facebook: <A HREF="http://www.facebook.com/sanford.thatcher">http://www.facebook.com/sanford.thatcher</A></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> "If a book is worth reading, it is worth buying."-John Ruskin (1865)</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> "The reason why so few good books are written is that so few people who</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> can write know anything."-Walter Bagehot (1853)</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> _______________________________________________</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> GOAL mailing list</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> <A HREF="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org">GOAL@eprints.org</A></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>> <A HREF="http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</A></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">>></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> L. W. Hurtado, PhD, FRSE</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> Emeritus Professor of New Testament Language, Literature & Theology</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> Honorary Professorial Fellow</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> New College (School of Divinity)</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> University of Edinburgh</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> Mound Place</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> Edinburgh, UK. EH1 2LX</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> Office Phone: (0)131 650 8920. FAX: (0)131 650 7952</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> <A HREF="http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/divinity/staff-profiles/hurtado">http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/divinity/staff-profiles/hurtado</A></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> <A HREF="http://www.larryhurtado.wordpress.com">www.larryhurtado.wordpress.com</A></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> --</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> _______________________________________________</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> GOAL mailing list</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> <A HREF="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org">GOAL@eprints.org</A></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> <A HREF="http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</A></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> _______________________________________________</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> GOAL mailing list</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> <A HREF="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org">GOAL@eprints.org</A></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">> <A HREF="http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</A></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="#737373">></FONT>
L. W. Hurtado, PhD, FRSE
Emeritus Professor of New Testament Language, Literature & Theology
Honorary Professorial Fellow
New College (School of Divinity)
University of Edinburgh
Mound Place
Edinburgh, UK. EH1 2LX
Office Phone: (0)131 650 8920. FAX: (0)131 650 7952
<A HREF="http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/divinity/staff-profiles/hurtado">http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/divinity/staff-profiles/hurtado</A>
<A HREF="http://www.larryhurtado.wordpress.com">www.larryhurtado.wordpress.com</A>
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<PRE>
Jean-Claude Guédon
Professeur titulaire
Littérature comparée
Université de Montréal
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