<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 TRANSITIONAL//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; CHARSET=UTF-8">
<META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="GtkHTML/4.6.4">
</HEAD>
<BODY LINK="#0000ff">
As for me, <B>the aim of Gold OA is not to create a genuine marketplace between publishers and authors </B>- especially if this be a marketplace that will always be subject to the shielding of pricing by librarians - but rather to create a genuine space for an open conversation among authors, <B>independently of their access to money</B>. <BR>
<BR>
For this reason, I increasingly feel the author-pay model is flawed and I feel that true Gold OA is and should be gratis for authors and free for readers. Research costs a lot, but is unsustainable if not deeply subsidized, in particular by public money. That has been going on forever (Archimedes burning lenses in Syracuse anyone ?). Publishing is part of doing research: that is why Kepler and Galileo and many others spent so much time writing so many letters. When the communication system of scientists was mechanized through printing, that did not change the status of the documents containing the research results. They were still part of research, except that new skills were needed to produce them. So, let us have these printed documents subsidized as well, and Bob's your uncle... That is the way Latin America is going, and, in Europe, countries that already heavily subsidize journals published by commercial outfits (e.g. Italy, France, Spain, etc.) only have to redirect that money on true Gold ventures. Subsidizing journals published by commercial publishers is simply stupid, not to say more. Subsidizing articles published in hybrid journals is also stupid: it only ensures a double revenue stream for publishers. Subsidizing authors to publish in OA journals is simply a way to promote one's institution or even country within some kind of competitive game, but without reference to the fact that the Grand Conversation of science needs universal access.<BR>
<BR>
Let us forget the economic perspective (without forgetting the accounting of real costs) as it tends to make us forget that scientific publishing exists to serve scientists, not the reverse. The exchange of research results should not be interfered with by market considerations. And if one uses the metaphor of "market" for the exchange of ideas, let us remember that it is a metaphor, not a concept. <BR>
<BR>
I am afraid that the term "market" pollutes a lot of our discussions nowadays, and not only in the open access arena, alas.<BR>
<BR>
Jean-Claude Guédon<BR>
<BR>
Le samedi 05 octobre 2013 à 16:12 +0100, Sally Morris a écrit :
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">Many of you have argued that Gold OA - at last - creates a genuine marketplace between publishers and authors. In any marketplace, sellers price according to what they consider their offer is worth to buyers. Some journals are worth more than others to authors (indeed, publishers generally follow this principle when pricing subscriptions - I don't know of any publishers who price all their subscription journals the same). So what's odd about it?</FONT></FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">Sally</FONT></FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<FONT SIZE="2">Sally Morris</FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<FONT SIZE="2">South House, The Street, Clapham, Worthing, West Sussex, UK BN13 3UU</FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<FONT SIZE="2">Tel: +44 (0)1903 871286</FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<FONT SIZE="2">Email: sally@morris-assocs.demon.co.uk</FONT>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<HR ALIGN="center">
<BR>
<B><FONT SIZE="2">From:</FONT></B><FONT SIZE="2"> goal-bounces@eprints.org [mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org] </FONT><B><FONT SIZE="2">On Behalf Of </FONT></B><FONT SIZE="2">Dana Roth</FONT><BR>
<B><FONT SIZE="2">Sent:</FONT></B><FONT SIZE="2"> 04 October 2013 20:00</FONT><BR>
<B><FONT SIZE="2">To:</FONT></B><FONT SIZE="2"> 'Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)'</FONT><BR>
<B><FONT SIZE="2">Subject:</FONT></B><FONT SIZE="2"> [GOAL] Re: Scholars jobs not publisher profits</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<FONT COLOR="#1f497d">In defense of Jeffrey Beall … the extreme variability of Hindawi’s APCs is, at the least, interesting … </FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1f497d">especially the large number of ‘free’ and relatively low priced APCs for many of their journals.</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1f497d"><A HREF="http://www.hindawi.com/apc/">http://www.hindawi.com/apc/</A></FONT><BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<FONT COLOR="#1f497d">Dana L. Roth </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1f497d">Caltech Library 1-32 </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1f497d">1200 E. California Blvd. Pasadena, CA 91125 </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1f497d">626-395-6423 fax 626-792-7540 </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1f497d"><A HREF="mailto:dzrlib@library.caltech.edu">dzrlib@library.caltech.edu</A> </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1f497d"><A HREF="http://library.caltech.edu/collections/chemistry.htm">http://library.caltech.edu/collections/chemistry.htm</A> </FONT><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<B>From:</B> goal-bounces@eprints.org [mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>David Prosser<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 04, 2013 1:27 AM<BR>
<B>To:</B> Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> [GOAL] Re: Scholars jobs not publisher profits<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
Jeffrey<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
"Ignoratio elenchi"? That's from Harry Potter, right? Spell meaning 'facts be gone'?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
Heather is interested in the flow of money out of academia. If that is your area of interest then the profit margins of large commercial, legacy publishers are clearly of more interest than the profit margins of other players. From the figures I quote (from your blog), Hindawi takes $300 of profit from each paper it publishers. A large commercial, legacy publisher takes about $1200*. From where I sit (and I admit my knowledge of economics is almost as bad as that of Latin) it is clear that $1200 per paper is a significantly larger amount than $300 per paper and there is no way the figures back up your contention that 'It appears that the money is just moving from one set of publishers to another.'<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
David<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">*My conservative guess - happy to have people with access to the figures correct this. It's basically 30% of $4000</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
On 3 Oct 2013, at 23:04, Beall, Jeffrey wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<FONT COLOR="#44546a">David,</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<FONT COLOR="#44546a">Thank you for your </FONT><FONT COLOR="#44546a"><I>ignoratio elenchi.</I></FONT><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<FONT COLOR="#44546a">--Jeffrey</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<B>From:</B> <A HREF="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org">goal-bounces@eprints.org</A> [<A HREF="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org">mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>David Prosser<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 03, 2013 3:03 PM<BR>
<B>To:</B> Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> [GOAL] Re: Scholars jobs not publisher profits<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
Jeffrey<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
in the comment section to your post Ahmed Hindawi points out that the average revenue per paper published by Hindawi is about $600. For people like Elsevier it is in excess of $4000 per paper. I think it is clear which publisher is taking (significantly) more money out of the system.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
David<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
On 3 Oct 2013, at 20:31, Beall, Jeffrey wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT COLOR="#44546a">Heather:</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT COLOR="#44546a">I’ve <A HREF="http://scholarlyoa.com/2013/04/04/hindawis-profits-are-larger-than-elseviers/">documented</A> that Hindawi’s profit margin is higher than Elsevier’s. So, I am correct in assuming that you include Hindawi in your advice below, no? Also, it’s been revealed that a number of the higher ups at PLOS are drawing salaries of over a quarter-million dollars a year, and one was even drawing a salary of over a half-million dollars. It appears that the money is just moving from one set of publishers to another.</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT COLOR="#44546a">Thanks,</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT COLOR="#44546a">Jeffrey Beall</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<B>From:</B> <A HREF="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org">goal-bounces@eprints.org</A> [<A HREF="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org">mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Heather Morrison<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 03, 2013 11:43 AM<BR>
<B>To:</B> Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> [GOAL] Scholars jobs not publisher profits<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
My reaction to the EBSCO report on expected ongoing high price increases by some in the scholarly publishing sector at the same time that academics at my alma mater have been asked to consider voluntary severance has been posted to my blog:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<A HREF="http://poeticeconomics.blogspot.ca/2013/10/scholars-lets-keep-our-jobs-and-ditch.html">http://poeticeconomics.blogspot.ca/2013/10/scholars-lets-keep-our-jobs-and-ditch.html</A><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
My conclusion:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<B>It is time for scholars, university administrators and research funders to wake up and realize that creation of new knowledge is done by researchers, not publishers</B>. <B>Don't give up your job or or let your colleagues give up theirs without demanding that the large commercial scholarly publishers give up their 30-40% profit margins. </B><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
best,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
-- <BR>
Dr. Heather Morrison<BR>
Assistant Professor<BR>
École des sciences de l'information / School of Information Studies<BR>
University of Ottawa<BR>
<BR>
<A HREF="http://www.sis.uottawa.ca/faculty/hmorrison.html">http://www.sis.uottawa.ca/faculty/hmorrison.html</A><BR>
<A HREF="mailto:Heather.Morrison@uottawa.ca">Heather.Morrison@uottawa.ca</A><BR>
<BR>
ALA Accreditation site visit scheduled for 30 Sept-1 Oct 2013 /<BR>
Visite du comité externe pour l'accréditation par l'ALA est prévu le 30<BR>
sept-1 oct 2013<BR>
<BR>
<A HREF="http://www.sis.uottawa.ca/accreditation.html">http://www.sis.uottawa.ca/accreditation.html</A><BR>
<A HREF="http://www.esi.uottawa.ca/accreditation.html">http://www.esi.uottawa.ca/accreditation.html</A><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<ATT00001..txt><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<ATT00001..txt><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>
_______________________________________________
GOAL mailing list
<A HREF="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org">GOAL@eprints.org</A>
<A HREF="http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</A>
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<TABLE CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="0" WIDTH="100%">
<TR>
<TD>
--
<PRE>
Jean-Claude Guédon
Professeur titulaire
Littérature comparée
Université de Montréal
</PRE>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
</BODY>
</HTML>