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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I strongly support David here – and I do have some background in economics.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">While profit margins could be compared in percentages, that is not always relevant, especially when the scales are so different as between Hindawi
and Elsevier. One can actually compare dollars, and see who gets the most out of science …<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">An interesting aspect is that while Elsevier’s profits demonstrate the strength of monopolistic competition and is something we should be wary
of, Hindawi’s shows that there will be room for new entrants to the OA business, this has the potential of driving prices (costs, to us in science) down. (Publishers will of course strive to try to prevent this, but we should see it as an opportunity.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Seeing this as an irrelevant fact seems a bit narrow-minded?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Jan Erik<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Fra:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> goal-bounces@eprints.org [mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org]
<b>På vegne av</b> David Prosser<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 4. oktober 2013 10:27<br>
<b>Til:</b> Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br>
<b>Emne:</b> [GOAL] Re: Scholars jobs not publisher profits<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Jeffrey<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">"Ignoratio elenchi"? That's from Harry Potter, right? Spell meaning 'facts be gone'?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Heather is interested in the flow of money out of academia. If that is your area of interest then the profit margins of large commercial, legacy publishers are clearly of more interest than the profit margins of other players. From the
figures I quote (from your blog), Hindawi takes $300 of profit from each paper it publishers. A large commercial, legacy publisher takes about $1200*. From where I sit (and I admit my knowledge of economics is almost as bad as that of Latin) it is clear
that $1200 per paper is a significantly larger amount than $300 per paper and there is no way the figures back up your contention that 'It appears that the money is just moving from one set of publishers to another.'<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">David<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">*My conservative guess - happy to have people with access to the figures correct this. It's basically 30% of $4000<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 3 Oct 2013, at 23:04, Beall, Jeffrey wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#44546A">David,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#44546A">Thank you for your<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>ignoratio elenchi.</i></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN"> </span></i><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#44546A">--Jeffrey</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#44546A"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>David Prosser<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, October 03, 2013 3:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[GOAL] Re: Scholars jobs not publisher profits</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Jeffrey<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">in the comment section to your post Ahmed Hindawi points out that the average revenue per paper published by Hindawi is about $600. For people like Elsevier it is in excess of $4000 per paper. I think it is clear which
publisher is taking (significantly) more money out of the system.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">David<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On 3 Oct 2013, at 20:31, Beall, Jeffrey wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#44546A">Heather:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#44546A"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#44546A">I’ve<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://scholarlyoa.com/2013/04/04/hindawis-profits-are-larger-than-elseviers/">documented</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>that
Hindawi’s profit margin is higher than Elsevier’s. So, I am correct in assuming that you include Hindawi in your advice below, no? Also, it’s been revealed that a number of the higher ups at PLOS are drawing salaries of over a quarter-million dollars a year,
and one was even drawing a salary of over a half-million dollars. It appears that the money is just moving from one set of publishers to another.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#44546A"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#44546A">Thanks,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#44546A"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#44546A">Jeffrey Beall</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#44546A"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org">mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Heather Morrison<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, October 03, 2013 11:43 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[GOAL] Scholars jobs not publisher profits</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">My reaction to the EBSCO report on expected ongoing high price increases by some in the scholarly publishing sector at the same time that academics at my alma mater have been asked to consider voluntary severance has
been posted to my blog:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="http://poeticeconomics.blogspot.ca/2013/10/scholars-lets-keep-our-jobs-and-ditch.html">http://poeticeconomics.blogspot.ca/2013/10/scholars-lets-keep-our-jobs-and-ditch.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">My conclusion:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">It is time for scholars, university administrators and research funders to wake up and realize that creation of new knowledge is done by researchers, not publishers</span></b><span lang="EN-US">.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>Don't
give up your job or or let your colleagues give up theirs without demanding that the large commercial scholarly publishers give up their 30-40% profit margins. </b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">-- <br>
Dr. Heather Morrison<br>
Assistant Professor<br>
École des sciences de l'information / School of Information Studies<br>
University of Ottawa<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.sis.uottawa.ca/faculty/hmorrison.html">http://www.sis.uottawa.ca/faculty/hmorrison.html</a><br>
<a href="mailto:Heather.Morrison@uottawa.ca">Heather.Morrison@uottawa.ca</a><br>
<br>
ALA Accreditation site visit scheduled for 30 Sept-1 Oct 2013 /<br>
Visite du comité externe pour l'accréditation par l'ALA est prévu le 30<br>
sept-1 oct 2013<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.sis.uottawa.ca/accreditation.html">http://www.sis.uottawa.ca/accreditation.html</a><br>
<a href="http://www.esi.uottawa.ca/accreditation.html">http://www.esi.uottawa.ca/accreditation.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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