<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"><base href="x-msg://144/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Robert is right. Talking about "percentages of journals" is nigh meaningless. 60% of journals can easily represent only a tiny percentage of published articles. Or an overwhelming majority of articles. It all depends on the journals, of which the variability in size is quite extreme. For example, if a random cohort of 100 OA journals includes PLOS One, then 99% of journals can quite easily represent less than 10% of articles.<div><br></div><div>Jan Velterop</div><div><br><div><div>On 16 Sep 2013, at 23:31, "Kiley, Robert" <<a href="mailto:r.kiley@wellcome.ac.uk">r.kiley@wellcome.ac.uk</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-GB" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); ">Rick/David<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); ">I keep hearing this claim that “60% of journals allow immediate, unembargoed, self-archiving” and wonder how accurate this. <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); ">Although I’m aware of the original source of this data (<a href="http://romeo.jiscinvolve.org/wp/2011/11/24/60-of-journals-allow-immediate-archiving-of-peer-reviewed-articles-but-it-gets-much-much-better/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://romeo.jiscinvolve.org/wp/2011/11/24/60-of-journals-allow-immediate-archiving-of-peer-reviewed-articles-but-it-gets-much-much-better/</a>) , this blog post is almost 2 years old and I suspect things may have changed.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); ">By way of example, I did an analysis of the 50 “top” subscription* journals (in terms of the amount of Wellcome-funded content they published) used by Wellcome authors in 2012 and found that:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); "><span>·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); ">Just 10% of journals in this cohort allowed authors to make the peer reviewed version of their manuscript available immediately in an IR<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); "><span>·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); ">Just 38% of journals in this cohort allowed authors to make the peer reviewed version of their manuscript available within 6 months of publication<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); ">I accept that my cohort is small – but is does include all the major publishers (e.g. Elsevier, Wiley, Springer, OUP, NPG, AAS etc).<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); ">And to be clear, I am talking about when content can be made available (not the date of deposition).<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); ">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); ">Robert<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); ">*In doing this analysis I excluded the fully OA journals (which obviously allow immediate self archiving).<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 255); "> </span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:goal-<a href="mailto:bounces@eprints.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">bounces@eprints.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>David Prosser<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>16 September 2013 16:07<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Rick Anderson<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci); SPARC Open Access Forum; Friend, Fred; LibLicense-L Discussion Forum<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[GOAL] Re: [sparc-oaforum] Re: Disruption vs. Protection<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Rick<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I don't know if there is a way of getting a list, but I think you are conflating two things. I assume you are saying you would cancel if all of the content of the journal was available without embargo. Sherpa/Romeo doesn't tell you that - it just tells you whether or not the publisher allows green deposit without embargo.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">And lots of publishers do - for the majority of papers in the majority of Elsevier titles, for example, the author is free to make available their papers - either pre- or post-prints. But as most authors don't take advantage of that offer I guess you'll not want to cancel Elsevier's titles.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">David<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 13.5pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; "> </span></p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On 16 Sep 2013, at 15:31, Rick Anderson wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Is there an easy way (easier than searching title-by-title through SHERPA/RoMEO) to get a complete list of journals offering Green access with no embargo? I can't speak for the marketplace as a whole, but my library will cancel most if not all of our subscriptions to any such journals — my institution is not giving us money so that we can spend it on content that's available for free.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "> </span></div></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">---<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Rick Anderson<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Assoc. Dean for Scholarly Resources & Collections<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Marriott Library, University of Utah<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Desk: (801) 587-9989<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Cell: (801) 721-1687<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><a href="mailto:rick.anderson@utah.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">rick.anderson@utah.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "> </span></div></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><Friend>, Fred <<a href="mailto:f.friend@ucl.ac.uk" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">f.friend@ucl.ac.uk</a>><br><b>Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Saturday, September 14, 2013 5:06 AM<br><b>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)" <<a href="mailto:goal@eprints.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">goal@eprints.org</a>>, LibLicense-L Discussion Forum <<a href="mailto:LIBLICENSE-L@LISTSERV.CRL.EDU" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">LIBLICENSE-L@LISTSERV.CRL.EDU</a>>, SPARC Open Access Forum <<a href="mailto:SPARC-OAForum@arl.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">SPARC-OAForum@arl.org</a>><br><b>Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>[sparc-oaforum] Re: Disruption vs. Protection<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "> </span></div></div><blockquote id="MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 4.5pt; border-left-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-right: 0cm; "><div name="divtagdefaultwrapper" id="divtagdefaultwrapper"><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">This is an excellent contribution from Danny Kingsley, and it would be interesting to have some real information about subscription loss from publishers, and not only from the two publishers she mentions. Very occasionally we do hear stories about a few journals ceasing publication, but the number appears very low by comparison with the total number of research journals published, and the causal link with repository deposit is obscure. A reduction in the quality of a journal (and I do not mean impact factor) or a reduction in library funding could be more influential factors than green open access. Presumably for commercial reasons publishers have not been willing to release information about subscription levels, but if they are to continue to use green open access as a threat they have to provide more evidence.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Likewise if they expect to be believed, publishers have to provide more information about sustainability. They speak about repositories not being a sustainable model for research dissemination, by which they appear to mean that their journals will not be sustainable in a large-scale repository environment. Most institutional repositories are fully-sustainable, their sustainability derived from the sustainability of the university in which they are based. If any research journals are not sustainable, the reasons may have nothing to do with repositories. Those reasons are currently hidden within the "big deal" model, the weak journals surviving through the strength of other journals. Rather than blame any lack of sustainability upon green open access, perhaps publishers should take a harder look at the sustainability of some of their weaker journals. Repositories are sustainable; some journals may not be.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Fred Friend<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Honorary Director Scholarly Communication UCL <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "> </span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: center; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><hr size="2" width="98%" align="center"></span></div><div id="divRplyFwdMsg"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a>> on behalf of Danny Kingsley <<a href="mailto:Danny.Kingsley@anu.edu.au" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">Danny.Kingsley@anu.edu.au</a>><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>14 September 2013 08:39<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[GOAL] Re: Disruption vs. Protection</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); ">It is not that there is not sufficient data, it is that the 'threat' does not exist. <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); ">The only 'evidence' to support the claim that immediate green open access threatens the 'sustainability' (read: profit) of commercial publishers comes in the form of the exceptionally questionable ALPSP survey sent out early last year to librarians<a href="http://www.publishingresearch.net/documents/ALPSPPApotentialresultsofsixmonthembargofv.pdf" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.publishingresearch.net/documents/ALPSPPApotentialresultsofsixmonthembargofv.pdf</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>. Heather Morrison wrote a piece on the methodological flaws with that survey <a href="http://poeticeconomics.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/publishers-association-survey-on.html" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://poeticeconomics.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/publishers-association-survey-on.html</a> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); ">And yet, when questioned earlier this year by Richard Poynder, this is what Springer referred to as their 'evidence'<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://poynder.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/open-access-springer-tightens-rules-on.html" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://poynder.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/open-access-springer-tightens-rules-on.html</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); ">There are, however currently two clear opportunities for the industry to collect some actual evidence either way (as opposed to opinions on a badly expressed hypothetical):<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "> </span></div></div><ol start="1" type="1" style="margin-bottom: 0cm; "><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Taylor & Francis have decided to indefinitely expand their trial of immediate green permissions to articles in their Library & Information Science journals. If they were to run a comparison of those titles against the titles in, say , three other disciplinary areas over two to three years they would be able to ascertain if this decision has made any difference to their subscription patterns.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Earlier this year (21 March) SAGE changed their policy to immediate green open access – again this offers a clean comparison between their subscription levels prior to and after the implementation of this policy.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); ">If it is the case that immediate green open access disrupts subscriptions (and I strongly suspect that it does not) then we can have that conversation when the evidence presents itself. Until then we are boxing at shadows.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); ">Danny<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); ">Dr Danny Kingsley<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); ">Executive Officer<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); ">Australian Open Access Support Group<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); ">e: <a href="mailto:eo@aoasg.org.au" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">eo@aoasg.org.au</a><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); ">p: +612 6125 6839<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); ">w:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://wwww.aoasg.org.au" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">wwww.aoasg.org.au</a><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); ">t: @openaccess_oz<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "> </span></div></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "> </span></div></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-color: currentcolor; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Dana Roth <<a href="mailto:dzrlib@library.caltech.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">dzrlib@library.caltech.edu</a>><br><b>Reply-To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"<a href="mailto:goal@eprints.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">goal@eprints.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:goal@eprints.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">goal@eprints.org</a>><br><b>Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Saturday, 14 September 2013 6:53 AM<br><b>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"<a href="mailto:goal@eprints.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">goal@eprints.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:goal@eprints.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">goal@eprints.org</a>><br><b>Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>[GOAL] Re: Disruption vs. Protection<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "> </span></div></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Isn’t the fact that “</span><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); ">The BIS report finds no evidence to support this distinction,”<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></em><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-style: normal; ">due to the fact that there isn’t sufficient data?</span></em><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-style: normal; "> </span></em><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-style: normal; ">I sense that we are going to have to live with (Green) OA and subscription journals for some time … and that it is the subscription model for commercially published journals will be increasingly unsustainable in the short term.</span></em><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-style: normal; "> </span></em><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-style: normal; ">An example of what could soon be unsustainable, is the commercially published ‘Journal of Comparative Neurology’ … that for 2012 cost its subscribers $30,860 and published only 234 articles.</span></em><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Dana L. Roth</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><br></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Caltech Library 1-32</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><br></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">1200 E. California Blvd. Pasadena, CA 91125</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><br></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">626-395-6423 fax 626-792-7540</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><br></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a href="mailto:dzrlib@library.caltech.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">dzrlib@library.caltech.edu</a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><br></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a href="http://library.caltech.edu/collections/chemistry.htm" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://library.caltech.edu/collections/chemistry.htm</a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Stevan Harnad<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, September 13, 2013 8:39 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[GOAL] Disruption vs. Protection</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><strong><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); "><a href="http://www.cilip.org.uk/cilip/news/end-gold-rush" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="color: rgb(0, 51, 102); ">End of the gold rush? (Yvonne Morris, cilip)</span></a>:</span></strong><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); "> <em><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">"In the interest of making research outputs publicly available; shorter and consistent or no embargo periods are the desired outcome. However, publishers… have argued that short embargo periods make librarians cancel subscriptions to their journals… The BIS report finds no evidence to support this distinction."</span></em></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: center; "><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><hr size="2" width="100%" noshade="" align="center" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); "></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); "><br>I have long meant to comment on a frequent contradiction that keeps being voiced by OA advocates and opponents alike:</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><strong><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); ">I. Call for Disruption:</span></strong><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); "> Serial publications are overpriced and unaffordable; publisher profits are excessive; the subscription (license) model is unsustainable: the subscription model needs to be disrupted in order to force it to evolve toward Gold OA.<br><br><strong><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">II. Call for Protection:</span></strong> Serials publications are threatened by (Green) OA, which risks making the subscription model unsustainable: the subscription model needs to be protected in order to allow it to evolve toward Gold OA.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); ">Green OA mandates do two things: (a) They provide immediate OA for all who cannot afford subscription access, and (b) they disrupt the subscription model.<br><br>Green OA embargoes do two things: (c) They withhold OA from all who cannot afford subscription access, and (d) they protect the subscription model from disruption.<br><br>Why do those OA advocates who are working for (a) (i.e., to provide immediate OA for all who cannot afford subscription access) also feel beholden to promise (d) (i.e. to protect the subscription model from disruption)?<br><br></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><a href="http://roarmap.eprints.org/56/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 102); ">University of Liège</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); "> and </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><a href="http://roarmap.eprints.org/850/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 102); ">FRSN Belgium</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); "> have adopted -- and </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><a href="http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/987-The-UKs-New-HEFCEREF-OA-Mandate-Proposal.html" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 102); ">HEFCE</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); "> and </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><a href="http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/1040-UK-BIS-Committee-2013-Report-on-Open-Access.html" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 102); ">BIS</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); "> have both proposed adopting -- the compromise resolution to this contradiction:<br><br>Mandate the immediate repository deposit of the final refereed draft of all articles immediately upon acceptance for publication, but if the author wishes to comply with a publisher embargo on Green OA, do not require access to the deposit to be made OA immediately: Let the deposit be made Closed Access during the allowable embargo period and let the repository's automated eprint-request Button tide over the needs of research and researchers by making it easy for users to request and authors to provide a copy for research purposes with one click each. <br><br>This tides over research needs during the embargo. If it still disrupts serials publication and makes subscriptions unsustainable, chances are that it's time for publishers to phase out the products and services for which there is no longer a market in the online era and evolve instead toward something more in line with the real needs of the PostGutenberg research community.<br><br>Evolution and adaptation never occur except under the (disruptive) pressure of necessity. Is there any reason to protect the journal publishing industry from evolutionary pressure, at the expense of research progress?<br><br><strong><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">Stevan Harnad</span></strong></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(40, 40, 40); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "> </span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google<br>Groups "SPARC OA Forum" group.<br>To post to this group, send email to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sparc-oaforum@arl.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">sparc-oaforum@arl.org</a><br>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to<br><a href="mailto:sparc-oaforum+unsubscribe@arl.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">sparc-oaforum+unsubscribe@arl.org</a><br>For more options, visit this group at<br><a href="http://groups.google.com/a/arl.org/group/sparc-oaforum" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://groups.google.com/a/arl.org/group/sparc-oaforum</a><br> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "> </span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sparc-oaforum+unsubscribe@arl.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">sparc-oaforum+unsubscribe@arl.org</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></div></blockquote></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google<br>Groups "SPARC OA Forum" group.<br>To post to this group, send email to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sparc-oaforum@arl.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">sparc-oaforum@arl.org</a><br>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to<br><a href="mailto:sparc-oaforum+unsubscribe@arl.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">sparc-oaforum+unsubscribe@arl.org</a><br>For more options, visit this group at<br><a href="http://groups.google.com/a/arl.org/group/sparc-oaforum" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://groups.google.com/a/arl.org/group/sparc-oaforum</a><br> <o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sparc-oaforum+unsubscribe@arl.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">sparc-oaforum+unsubscribe@arl.org</a>.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div><br><br><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><font style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">This message has been scanned for viruses by<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font><a href="http://www.blackspider.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><font style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">BlackSpider MailControl</font></a></div>_______________________________________________<br>GOAL mailing list<br><a href="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">GOAL@eprints.org</a><br><a href="http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>