<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>There seem to be two incompatible arguments about the effect of Green OA:<br><br></div>1. That Green OA presents no threat to subscription publishing - see this thread and frequent other posts.(DK: "It is not that there is not sufficient data, it is that the 'threat' does not exist". )<br>
<br><br></div>2. Stevan Harnad's goal that Green OA will destroy the subscription market (<a href="http://poynder.blogspot.ch/2013/07/where-are-we-what-still-needs-to-be.html">http://poynder.blogspot.ch/2013/07/where-are-we-what-still-needs-to-be.html</a> )<br>
<span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">>> SH >>Universal
Green makes all articles OA, thereby making subscriptions unsustainable,
forcing publishers to cut needless costs and downsize to managing peer review
alone. No more demand for a print edition. No more demand for an online
edition. All access-provision and archiving offloaded onto the global network
of institutional OA repositories. </span><br></div><div>and above:<br>>>SH>>"<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Green
OA mandates do two things: (a) They provide immediate OA for all who
cannot afford subscription access, and (b) they disrupt the subscription
model.</span>"<br></div><div><br></div>I cannot reconcile these. One the one hand the advocates of Green OA seem to be telling the publishers "please give us Green OA mandates[1] - they won't hurt you" and on the other "Green OA is going to disrupt your business". Why should any publisher provide for deposition of something that is
designed to disrupt their business? (If they were smart they would
design a different business that cuts out libraries altogether and I
suspect that is what some will do).<br><br>[1] Note that we require publisher consent to have Green OA deposition (having failed to convince universities and authors to withhold copyright transfer - which would solve the problem). <br>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Friend, Fred <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:f.friend@ucl.ac.uk" target="_blank">f.friend@ucl.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p>This is an excellent contribution from Danny Kingsley, and it would be interesting to have some real information about subscription loss from publishers, and not only from the two publishers she mentions. Very occasionally we do hear stories
about a few journals ceasing publication, but the number appears very low by comparison with the total number of research journals published, and the causal link with repository deposit is obscure. A reduction in the quality of a journal (and I do not mean
impact factor) or a reduction in library funding could be more influential factors than green open access. Presumably for commercial reasons publishers have not been willing to release information about subscription levels, but if they are to continue to use
green open access as a threat they have to provide more evidence.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Likewise if they expect to be believed, publishers have to provide more information about sustainability. They speak about repositories not being a sustainable model for research dissemination, by which they appear to mean that their journals
will not be sustainable in a large-scale repository environment. Most institutional repositories are fully-sustainable, their sustainability derived from the sustainability of the university in which they are based. If any research journals are not sustainable,
the reasons may have nothing to do with repositories. Those reasons are currently hidden within the "big deal" model, the weak journals surviving through the strength of other journals. Rather than blame any lack of sustainability upon green open access, perhaps
publishers should take a harder look at the sustainability of some of their weaker journals. Repositories are sustainable; some journals may not be.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Fred Friend</p>
<p>Honorary Director Scholarly Communication UCL </p>
<p></p>
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<div dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" target="_blank">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a> <<a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" target="_blank">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a>> on behalf of Danny Kingsley <<a href="mailto:Danny.Kingsley@anu.edu.au" target="_blank">Danny.Kingsley@anu.edu.au</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 14 September 2013 08:39<div class="im"><br>
<b>To:</b> Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br>
</div><b>Subject:</b> [GOAL] Re: Disruption vs. Protection</font>
<div> </div>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>It is not that there is not sufficient data, it is that the 'threat' does not exist. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The only 'evidence' to support the claim that immediate green open access threatens the 'sustainability' (read: profit) of commercial publishers comes in the form of the exceptionally questionable ALPSP survey sent out early last year to librarians
<a href="http://www.publishingresearch.net/documents/ALPSPPApotentialresultsofsixmonthembargofv.pdf" target="_blank">
http://www.publishingresearch.net/documents/ALPSPPApotentialresultsofsixmonthembargofv.pdf</a> . Heather Morrison wrote a piece on the methodological flaws with that survey <a href="http://poeticeconomics.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/publishers-association-survey-on.html" target="_blank">http://poeticeconomics.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/publishers-association-survey-on.html</a> </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And yet, when questioned earlier this year by Richard Poynder, this is what Springer referred to as their 'evidence'
<a href="http://poynder.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/open-access-springer-tightens-rules-on.html" target="_blank">
http://poynder.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/open-access-springer-tightens-rules-on.html</a> .</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are, however currently two clear opportunities for the industry to collect some actual evidence either way (as opposed to opinions on a badly expressed hypothetical):</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<ol>
<li>Taylor & Francis have decided to indefinitely expand their trial of immediate green permissions to articles in their Library & Information Science journals. If they were to run a comparison of those titles against the titles in, say , three other disciplinary
areas over two to three years they would be able to ascertain if this decision has made any difference to their subscription patterns.</li><li>Earlier this year (21 March) SAGE changed their policy to immediate green open access – again this offers a clean comparison between their subscription levels prior to and after the implementation of this policy.</li>
</ol>
<div>If it is the case that immediate green open access disrupts subscriptions (and I strongly suspect that it does not) then we can have that conversation when the evidence presents itself. Until then we are boxing at shadows.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Danny</div>
<div><br>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:11pt;margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm">
Dr Danny Kingsley</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:11pt;margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm">
Executive Officer</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:11pt;margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm">
Australian Open Access Support Group</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:11pt;margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm">
e: <a href="mailto:eo@aoasg.org.au" target="_blank">eo@aoasg.org.au</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:11pt;margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm">
p: <a href="tel:%2B612%206125%206839" value="+61261256839" target="_blank">+612 6125 6839</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:11pt;margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm">
w: <a href="http://wwww.aoasg.org.au" target="_blank">wwww.aoasg.org.au</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:11pt;margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm">
t: @openaccess_oz</p>
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<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentColor currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in;text-align:left;color:black;font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt">
<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Dana Roth <<a href="mailto:dzrlib@library.caltech.edu" target="_blank">dzrlib@library.caltech.edu</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Reply-To: </span>"<a href="mailto:goal@eprints.org" target="_blank">goal@eprints.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:goal@eprints.org" target="_blank">goal@eprints.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Saturday, 14 September 2013 6:53 AM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>"<a href="mailto:goal@eprints.org" target="_blank">goal@eprints.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:goal@eprints.org" target="_blank">goal@eprints.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>[GOAL] Re: Disruption vs. Protection<br>
</div>
<div><br>
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<div lang="EN-US">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">Isn’t the fact that “</span><em><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">The BIS report finds no evidence
to support this distinction,” </span></em><em><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;font-style:normal">due to the fact that there isn’t sufficient data?</span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;font-style:normal"> </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;font-style:normal">I sense that we are going to have to live with (Green) OA and subscription journals for some time … and that it is the subscription
model for commercially published journals will be increasingly unsustainable in the short term.</span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;font-style:normal"> </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;font-style:normal">An example of what could soon be unsustainable, is the commercially published ‘Journal of Comparative Neurology’ … that for
2012 cost its subscribers $30,860 and published only 234 articles.</span></em><em><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"></span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Dana L. Roth</span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><br>
</span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Caltech Library 1-32</span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><br>
</span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">1200 E. California Blvd. Pasadena, CA 91125</span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><br>
</span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><a href="tel:626-395-6423" value="+16263956423" target="_blank">626-395-6423</a> fax <a href="tel:626-792-7540" value="+16267927540" target="_blank">626-792-7540</a></span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><br>
</span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><a href="mailto:dzrlib@library.caltech.edu" target="_blank">dzrlib@library.caltech.edu</a></span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><br>
</span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><a href="http://library.caltech.edu/collections/chemistry.htm" target="_blank">http://library.caltech.edu/collections/chemistry.htm</a></span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"></span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" target="_blank">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a> [<a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" target="_blank">mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stevan Harnad<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 13, 2013 8:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [GOAL] Disruption vs. Protection</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><a href="http://www.cilip.org.uk/cilip/news/end-gold-rush" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(0,51,102)">End of the gold rush? (Yvonne Morris, cilip)</span></a>:</span></strong><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> <em><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">"In
the interest of making research outputs publicly available; shorter and consistent or no embargo periods are the desired outcome. However, publishers… have argued that short embargo periods make librarians cancel subscriptions to their journals… The BIS report
finds no evidence to support this distinction."</span></em></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><br>
I have long meant to comment on a frequent contradiction that keeps being voiced by OA advocates and opponents alike:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">I. Call for Disruption:</span></strong><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> Serial publications
are overpriced and unaffordable; publisher profits are excessive; the subscription (license) model is unsustainable: the subscription model needs to be disrupted in order to force it to evolve toward Gold OA.<br>
<br>
<strong><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">II. Call for Protection:</span></strong> Serials publications are threatened by (Green) OA, which risks making the subscription model unsustainable: the subscription model needs to be protected in order
to allow it to evolve toward Gold OA.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Green OA mandates do two things: (a) They provide immediate OA for all who cannot afford subscription access, and (b) they disrupt the subscription
model.<br>
<br>
Green OA embargoes do two things: (c) They withhold OA from all who cannot afford subscription access, and (d) they protect the subscription model from disruption.<br>
<br>
Why do those OA advocates who are working for (a) (i.e., to provide immediate OA for all who cannot afford subscription access) also feel beholden to promise (d) (i.e. to protect the subscription model from disruption)?<br>
<br>
</span><a href="http://roarmap.eprints.org/56/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">University of Liège</span></a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> and </span><a href="http://roarmap.eprints.org/850/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">FRSN
Belgium</span></a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> have adopted -- and </span><a href="http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/987-The-UKs-New-HEFCEREF-OA-Mandate-Proposal.html" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">HEFCE</span></a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> and </span><a href="http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/1040-UK-BIS-Committee-2013-Report-on-Open-Access.html" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">BIS</span></a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> have
both proposed adopting -- the compromise resolution to this contradiction:<br>
<br>
Mandate the immediate repository deposit of the final refereed draft of all articles immediately upon acceptance for publication, but if the author wishes to comply with a publisher embargo on Green OA, do not require access to the deposit to be made OA immediately:
Let the deposit be made Closed Access during the allowable embargo period and let the repository's automated eprint-request Button tide over the needs of research and researchers by making it easy for users to request and authors to provide a copy for research
purposes with one click each. <br>
<br>
This tides over research needs during the embargo. If it still disrupts serials publication and makes subscriptions unsustainable, chances are that it's time for publishers to phase out the products and services for which there is no longer a market in the
online era and evolve instead toward something more in line with the real needs of the PostGutenberg research community.<br>
<br>
Evolution and adaptation never occur except under the (disruptive) pressure of necessity. Is there any reason to protect the journal publishing industry from evolutionary pressure, at the expense of research progress?<br>
<br>
<strong><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Stevan Harnad</span></strong></span></p>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Peter Murray-Rust<br>Reader in Molecular Informatics<br>Unilever Centre, Dep. Of Chemistry<br>University of Cambridge<br>CB2 1EW, UK<br>+44-1223-763069
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