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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-AU link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sorry Stevan. My recent reply to Tim answers most of these points. Please remember than I am an ICT professional.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The ones that are not refuted by that reply (or require emphasis) are:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>All author deposits must be audited. They may be in error and may even be fraudulent. There is plenty of incentive for the latter, given the lax controls. I could even see phishing repositories developing. Even author identity can be hacked, perhaps by students.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>There may not ever have been an AM (refereed draft in your terminology) as a single file. To deliberately make one up for the local repository is extra effort (aka work) by the author, or imposes extra work on the reader if that the integration is not done or not possible.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Physicists produce pretty simple papers in ICT terms. Few animations, 3D models, videos, audio, etc. In other words physicists produce clunky pdf-reducible objects, whether in astronomy or particle physics. That’s why they were and are good candidates for OA. Computer scientists were, but no longer are as much.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The request-a-copy button is not perfect. Especially with the direction that scholarly publication is likely to go. For example, sending 50 files by the button is not catered for. I can provide advice if wanted.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If we preface your mantras by [if convenient] or [if immediately possible], they are perhaps barely acceptable. Frankly, I think that academics are cleverer than you give them credit for. In reading your comments, I have mentally deleted the perjorative ‘sensible’, ‘cautious’, ‘timid’ and ‘foolish’. For your information, I do (1) when I can [not always]; (2) almost never since I don’t know the publication date in advance, (3) I never ask the publisher for a date for reasons in (2), (4) I’ve never actioned this, because I am an OA advocate and I won’t publish unless I can make my article OA, or feel safe being illegal.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I regard the REF deposit requirement to be absurd, and will continue to support the Australian authorities in their better grasp of the situation than the UK.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best wishes<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Arthur Sale<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> goal-bounces@eprints.org [mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stevan Harnad<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, 22 March 2013 1:55 AM<br><b>To:</b> Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br><b>Cc:</b> LibLicense-L Discussion Forum<br><b>Subject:</b> [GOAL] Re: Harnad Comments on Proposed HEFCE/REF Green Open Access Mandate<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>An immediate-deposit mandate moots most of this discussion. Versions and rights need <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>not be checked if the mandate simply says:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><i>"Deposit the refereed draft immediately, and make it Closed Access."</i><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>So all this discussion is about what *else* you can do, and when.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Here's a list:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><p class=MsoNormal>1. A sensible author will make the immediate-deposit OA immediately, just as physicists <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>have been successfully doing for decades with no problems.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>2. A cautious author will look up the publsher's embargo policy as well as the funder's<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>embargo limit, and make the immediate-deposit OA at whichever date comes first.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>3. A timid author will look up the publsher's embargo policy and make the <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>immediate-deposit OA at whatever date the publisher indicates.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>4. A foolish author will simply make the immediate-deposit and leave it as<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Closed Access (attending to reprint requests generated by the request copy Button<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>on an individual case by case basis).<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The speed with which we reach 100% Green OA and beyond depends on the relative<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>proportion of foolish, timid, cautious and sensible authors.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>But please, while we keep speculating, let us all mandate immediate-deposit.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I don't mean <u>just</u>:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><i>"Deposit the refereed draft immediately, and make it Closed Access."</i><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Improve on that in any way you like:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><p class=MsoNormal><i>"and make it OA immediately"</i><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><i>"and make it OA immediately or after X months at the latest"</i><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>But in any case, <b>deposit immediately!</b><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Stevan Harnad<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 2013-03-21, at 9:40 AM, Hans PfeiffenbergAer <<a href="mailto:hans.pfeiffenberger@awi.de">hans.pfeiffenberger@awi.de</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Am 21.03.13 10:35, schrieb Tim Brody:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>By comparison, taking a copy is little extra effort and the institution<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>can say unambiguously that they have an open access copy. <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>wrong: if somebody uploads a PDF the institution<br> <br>- may have a <b><i>copy</i></b> if the identity of the file submitted or its equivalence with the version of record can be established<br><br>- may have an <b><i>OA copy</i></b>. But to establish that, someone at the institution (the library?) must check the copyright notice in it (if any) and possibly consult with the authors about his/her contract with the publisher (because, legally, something found on the web pages of the publisher or ROMEO does not count), ...<br><br><br>I just insisted on bean counting because it was done to the other side as well. I think this could go on indefinitely and should therefore be stopped.<br><br>Seen from a non-British perspective, the discussion has morphed from being about Open Access to a discussion about controlling of science. And setting up of mandates and policies which are the least costly to enforce. Cost to the admin dept., of course! Where the library, if involved in this, may morph into a branch of admin. <br><br>How very German! Enjoy!<br><br><br>best,<br><br>Hans<br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>GOAL mailing list<br><a href="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org">GOAL@eprints.org</a><br><a href="http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>