<html><head><base href="x-msg://300/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">What does this prove, pray?<div><br></div><div>A search in Google Scholar for "Open Access" and God yields 36,300 results, and "Open Access" and the devil 10,600 results.</div><div><br></div><div>I share Peter M-R's unhappiness with the term 'libre OA', though maybe for different reasons. It is tautological: true OA (as we all – including Harnad – envisioned as our goal in the BOAI) is 'libre' already. In French that seems to be clear: Open Access is usually translated as Accès libre. What would 'libre OA' be in French? Accès libre libre?</div><div><br></div><div>Having a 'first things first' approach with 'green' OA to reaching the OA goal is a legitimate stance to take (whether or not I or anybody else agrees with the idea); arbitrarily and unilaterally changing the goalposts – or the definition of what OA should be – along the way is not.</div><div><br></div><div>Jan Velterop</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On 29 Aug 2012, at 22:09, Hélène.Bosc wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2" face="Arial">Peter,</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">you wrote : "<font size="3" face="Times New Roman">I am less than happy with the term "libre" which does not correspond to usage elsewhere and is at best confusing"</font></font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">In French we say "Les absents ont toujours tort" (Absent people are always wrong) . </font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"> It seems that in April 2008, you were not present in the OA movement (Suber's and Harnad's definition!!!) and specially in the American Scientist discussions when "Libre and Gratis" appeared. Please see :</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><a href="http://listserver.sigmaxi.org/sc/wa.exe?A2=ind08&L=american-scientist-open-access-forum&O=D&F=l&P=37608">http://listserver.sigmaxi.org/sc/wa.exe?A2=ind08&L=american-scientist-open-access-forum&O=D&F=l&P=37608</a></font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"> A</font><font size="2" face="Arial"> research with Google Scholar with "Open Access" gives the following results:</font></div><font size="2" face="Arial"><blockquote class="webkit-indent-blockquote" style="border-bottom-width: medium; border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-color: initial; border-left-width: medium; border-left-style: none; border-left-color: initial; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 40px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; border-top-width: medium; border-top-style: none; border-top-color: initial; border-right-width: medium; border-right-style: none; border-right-color: initial; padding-top: 0px; "><div><div><a href="http://bit.ly/OAsuberGS">http://bit.ly/OAsuberGS</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>3240</b></div></div><div><div><a href="http://bit.ly/OAharnadGS">http://bit.ly/OAharnadGS</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>3740</b></div></div><div><div><a href="http://bit.ly/OAmurrayrustGS">http://bit.ly/OAmurrayrustGS</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>716</b></div></div><div> </div></blockquote></font><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><div><span class="757251217-29082012">The print of these<strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>6980 "Open Access</strong>" is too strong today, in every mind and you cannot<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>resist to what has been written about "Open Access" during all these past years by "two individuals ", as you say. </div><div>(Quoted from one of your recent messages : "It is now left to one (SH) or possibly two (PS) individuals to state what OA is." ) </div><div> </div><div> </div></font><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial">Hélène Bosc<br>Open Access to Scientific Communication<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><a href="http://open-access.infodocs.eu/">http://open-access.infodocs.eu/</a></font></div></div><blockquote style="border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px; "><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; ">----- Original Message -----</div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); "><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="pm286@cam.ac.uk" href="mailto:pm286@cam.ac.uk">Peter Murray-Rust</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="goal@eprints.org" href="mailto:goal@eprints.org">Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="JISC-REPOSITORIES@jiscmail.ac.uk" href="mailto:JISC-REPOSITORIES@jiscmail.ac.uk">JISC-REPOSITORIES@jiscmail.ac.uk</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, August 29, 2012 7:29 PM</div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[GOAL] Re: Definition of OA and its Priorities and Obstacles</div><div><br></div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Stevan Harnad<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk" target="_blank">harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; "><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; "><div>JV: "the definition of OA... is being changed... instead of any OA achievements</div></div></blockquote><div class="im"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; "><div>being measured against the goal that has been set"</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>The 2002 BOAI definition was refined in 2008 to name its two constituents:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.earlham.edu/%7Epeters/fos/newsletter/08-02-08.htm#gratis-libre" target="_blank">http://www.earlham.edu/%7Epeters/fos/newsletter/08-02-08.htm#gratis-libre</a></div></div></div></blockquote><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><br>This statement is simply wrong.<br><br>The linked resource is written by Peter Suber alone. He uses the pronoun "I" throughout much of the mail. I applaud his efforts to describe the situation. (I am less than happy with the term "libre" which does not correspond to usage elsewhere and is at best confusing. But since it can apparently mean almost removal of any condition, no matter how minor, it has very limited use).<br><br>At the end Peter Suber makes it clear he is NOT "refining BOAI". He says<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>(<a href="http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/2008/08/greengold-oa-and-gratislibre-oa.html">http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/2008/08/greengold-oa-and-gratislibre-oa.html</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>)<br><br><span class="rss:item"><b>I'm [PS] not proposing a change in the BBB definition</b>, and I haven't retreated an inch in my support for it. I'm simply proposing vocabulary to help us talk unambiguously about two species of free online access.</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[PMR's emphasis]<br><br>P.<br clear="all"></div></div><br>--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Peter Murray-Rust<br>Reader in Molecular Informatics<br>Unilever Centre, Dep. Of Chemistry<br>University of Cambridge<br>CB2 1EW, UK<br>+44-1223-763069<br><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><hr><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>_______________________________________________<br>GOAL mailing list<br><a href="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org">GOAL@eprints.org</a><br>http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal<br></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br>GOAL mailing list<br><a href="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org">GOAL@eprints.org</a><br><a href="http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</a></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>