<html><head><base href="x-msg://238/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Chris,<div><br></div><div>The nice thing about true open access articles (under a CC-BY licence) is that they can be printed and distributed, even for a profit (CC-BY publishers are not consumed by 'profit-spite'). This is not true for the so-called OA articles which are under a Non-Commercial licence, of course, but they are not real open access). </div><div><br></div><div>Here lies an opportunity for enterprising minds in developing countries!</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Jan</div><div><br></div><div> <br><div><div>On 7 Aug 2012, at 17:27, Zielinski, Mr. Chris - bzv wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-GB" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; color: blue; ">…and don’t forget the cost of printing, paper, glue and postage stamps in the original print version, O Digerati: last time I checked, they weren’t being given away for nothing. While much of the Open Access discussion only applies to digital objects, these existential OA cost comparisons must include the costs of paper versions as well. where there is a paper version at all,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; color: blue; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; color: blue; ">Or are we only talking about that motherless object, the online-only journal (useless to many in most developing countries)?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; color: blue; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; color: blue; ">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; color: blue; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; color: blue; ">Chris<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; color: blue; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">Chris Zielinski<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">Coordinator, African Health Observartory and<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">Managing Editor,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>African Health Monitor</i><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">WHO Regional Office for<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><ns0:place><span style="color: navy; ">Africa</span></ns0:place><span style="color: navy; "></span></span></b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="FR" style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">BP06 Cité du Djoué, Brazzaville, Congo<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">Brazzaville T:</span></b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>+47 241 39935</span><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; "> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>M</b></span><b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">:</span></b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>+242-068 29 79 49 <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>F:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>+47 241 39503</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: blue; "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><ns0:city><ns0:place><span style="color: navy; ">Geneva</span></ns0:place></ns0:city><span style="color: navy; ">: M<i>+</i></span></span></b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">41 799 40 3662</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: navy; "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">Skype:</span></b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>chris.zielinski1<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>e-mail:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u><a href="mailto:zielinskic@afro.who.int" title="mailto:zielinskic@afro.who.int" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="color: navy; ">zielinskic@afro.who.int</span></a></u><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; color: blue; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; color: blue; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a> [mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Sally Morris<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>07 August 2012 16:00<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>'Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)'<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[GOAL] Re: Planning for the Open Access Era<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: blue; ">Do you think that doesn't entail cost?</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: blue; ">The people who are doing this work 'free' (and the computer services provided 'free', etc) are all in reality being paid by someone to do their 'real' jobs. And, presumably, the amount of time devoted to those 'real' jobs is accordingly reduced.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: blue; ">Sally</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Sally Morris</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">South House, The Street, Clapham, Worthing, West Sussex, UK BN13 3UU</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Tel: +44 (0)1903 871286</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Email: <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sally@morris-assocs.demon.co.uk" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">sally@morris-assocs.demon.co.uk</a></span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: center; "><span lang="EN-US"><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:[mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org]" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">[mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org]</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Peter Murray-Rust<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>07 August 2012 15:12<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[GOAL] Re: Planning for the Open Access Era</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span>On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Sally Morris <<a href="mailto:sally@morris-assocs.demon.co.uk" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">sally@morris-assocs.demon.co.uk</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span>We should not delude ourselves; journals can only be 'free' if someone pays<br>the costs.<br><br>All the work involved in creating and running a journal has to be paid for<br>somehow - they don't magically go away if a journal is e-only (in fact,<br>there are some new costs, even though some of the old ones disappear).<br><br>I can only see three options for who pays: reader-side (e.g. the library);<br>author-side (e.g. publication fees); or 'fairy godmother' (e.g. sponsor).<o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span><br>There is a fourth option, which works: the scholarly community manage publication through contributed labour and resources and the net amount of cash is near-zero. This is described in<a href="http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/pamphlet/2012/03/06/an-efficient-journal/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/pamphlet/2012/03/06/an-efficient-journal/</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>where the J. Machine Learning Research is among the highest regarded journals in the area (top 7%) and free-to-authors and free-to-readers. There is an enlightening debate (on this URL) between those who run the journal and Kent Anderson of the Scholarly Kitchen who cannot believe that people will run and work for journals for the good of the community.<br><br>There is no law of physics that says this doesn't scale. It is simply that most scholars would rather the taxpayer and students paid for the administration publishing (either as author-side or reader-side) so the scholars don't have to do the work. And they've managed ot get 10 B USD per year. If scholars regarded publishing as part of their role, of if they were prepared to involved the wider community (as Wikipedia has done) we could have a much more C21 type of activity - innovative and valuable to the whole world rather than just academia. It would cost zero, but it would be much cheaper than any current model.<br><br>And of course we now have a complete free map of the whole world (<a href="http://openstreetmap.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">openstreetmap.org</a>) which is so much better than other alternatives that many people and organizations are switching to it. And, for many years, it didn't have a bank account and existed on "marginal resources" from UCL (and probably still does).<br><br>But most people will regard this as another fairy tale.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding-top: 0cm; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span><br clear="all"><o:p></o:p></span></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span><br>--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Peter Murray-Rust<br>Reader in Molecular Informatics<br>Unilever Centre, Dep. Of Chemistry<br>University of Cambridge<br>CB2 1EW, UK<br>+44-1223-763069<o:p></o:p></span></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>GOAL mailing list<br><a href="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org">GOAL@eprints.org</a><br>http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>