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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hi Stevan,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Elsevier has an agreement with one funding body that results in the posting of 100% of the articles flowing from its grant funding. There’s no merit to working
with publishers on sustainable approaches to green open access? Really??<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">And with that, I’m going to duck back down behind my parapet. However, I remain happy to talk to anyone about how to expand access including through the full
colour spectrum of open access options.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">With kind wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Alicia<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#7F7F7F">Dr Alicia Wise<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#7F7F7F">Director of Universal Access<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#FF9900">Elsevier
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">I The Boulevard I Langford Lane I Kidlington I Oxford I OX5 1GB</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">M: +44 (0) 7823 536 826 I E:
<a href="mailto:a.wise@elsevier.com">a.wise@elsevier.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Twitter: @wisealic<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> goal-bounces@eprints.org [mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stevan Harnad<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 20, 2012 12:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [GOAL] Re: Agreement on Green OA not needed from publishers but from institutions and funders<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 2012-06-20, at 7:15 AM, Wise, Alicia (ELS-OXF) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">...perhaps time to explore opportunities to work
<i>with</i> publishers?</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">No, precisely the opposite, I think: It's time for institutions to realize that institutional<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Green OA self-archiving policy is (and always has been) exclusively their own<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">business, and not publishers' (who have a rather different business...)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Negotiate subscription prices with publishers.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">But do not even discuss institutional OA policy with publishers.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">(And advise institutional researchers to ignore incoherent clauses<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">in their copyright agreements: Anything of the form "P but not-P" -- e.g.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">"you retain the right to self-archive, but not if you are required to<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">exercise the right to self-archive" -- implies anything at all, as well as the<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">opposite of anything at all. Don't give it another thought: just self-archive.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">And institutions should set policy -- mandate immediate deposit, specify<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">maximum allowable OA-embargo-length, the shorter the better, and<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">keep publisher mumbo-jumbo out of the loop altogether. Ditto for<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">funders, but, to avoid gratuitous extra problems as a 3rd-party site,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">stipulate institutional rather than institution-external deposit.)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Stevan Harnad<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#7F7F7F">Dr Alicia Wise</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#7F7F7F">Director of Universal Access</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#FF9900">Elsevier
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">I The Boulevard I Langford Lane I Kidlington I Oxford I OX5 1GB</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">M: +44 (0) 7823 536 826 I E:
<a href="mailto:a.wise@elsevier.com">a.wise@elsevier.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Twitter: @wisealic</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a> <a href="mailto:[mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org]">
[mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>David Prosser<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 20, 2012 11:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [GOAL] Re: Why should publishers agree to Green OA?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:13.5pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">Laurent makes an important point. OA policies are between the funders or institutions and the researchers. These agreements come
before any agreement regarding copyright assignment between authors and publishers. So, it is the job of publishers to decide if they are willing to live with the deposit agreement between the funder/institution and researchers, not the job of funders and
institutions to limit their policies to match the needs of publishers.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">David<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 20 Jun 2012, at 11:04, Laurent Romary wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Not that I know. I think the French Research Performing Organizations are not planning to put negotiation with editors as a premise to defining their own OA policy. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Laurent<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Le 20 juin 2012 à 11:45, Wise, Alicia (ELS-OXF) a écrit :<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hi Laurent,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Institutions already do have agreements with publishers via their libraries and/or library consortia.. This is certainly the case for INRIA. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">With kind wishes,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Alicia</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:[mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org]">[mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org]</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Laurent Romary<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[GOAL] Re: Why should publishers agree to Green OA?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This definitely makes no sense. Institutions are not going to start negotiating agreements with all publishers one by one. Does Elsevier have so much man power left to start negotiating with all institutions one by one as well. The corresponding
budget could then probably used to reduce subscriptions prices ;-)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Laurent<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Le 20 juin 2012 à 09:53, Wise, Alicia (ELS-OXF) a écrit :<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hi all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Just a quick point of clarification…. Elsevier doesn’t forbid posting if there is a mandate. We ask for an agreement with the institution that has the mandate,
and there is no cost for these agreements. The purpose of these agreements is to work out a win-win solution to find a way for the underlying journals in which academics choose to publish to be sustainable even if there are high posting rates.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">With kind wishes,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Alicia</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#7F7F7F">Dr Alicia Wise</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#7F7F7F">Director of Universal Access</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#FF9900">Elsevier<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">I The Boulevard I Langford
Lane I Kidlington I Oxford I OX5 1GB</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">M: +44 (0) 7823 536 826 I E:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:a.wise@elsevier.com">a.wise@elsevier.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Twitter: @wisealic</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:[mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org]">[mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org]</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Peter Murray-Rust<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, June 19, 2012 7:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[GOAL] Why should publishers agree to Green OA?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I have some simple questions about Green OA. I don't know the answers.<o:p></o:p></p>
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* is there any *contractual* relationship between a Green-publisher and any legal body? Or is Green simply a permission granted unilaterally by publishers when they feel like it, and withdrawable when they don't.<br>
* if Green starts impacting on publishers' revenues (and I understand this is part of the Green strategy - when we have 100% Green then publishers will have to change) what stops them simply withdrawing the permission? Or rationing it? Or any other anti-Green
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* Do publishers receive any funding from anywhere for allowing Green? Green is extra work for them - why should they increase the amount they do?<br>
* Is there any body which regularly "negotiates" with publishers such as ACS, who categorically forbid Green for now and for ever.<br>
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Various publishers seem to indicate that they will allow Green as long as it's a relatively small percentage. But, as Stevan has noted, if your institution mandates Green, then Elsevier forbids it. So I cannot see why, if Green were to reach - say - 50%, the
publishers wouldn't simply ration it and prevent 100%. <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
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--<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Peter Murray-Rust<br>
Reader in Molecular Informatics<br>
Unilever Centre, Dep. Of Chemistry<br>
University of Cambridge<br>
CB2 1EW, UK<br>
+44-1223-763069<o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre>Elsevier Limited. Registered Office: The Boulevard, Langford Lane, Kidlington, Oxford, OX5 1GB, United Kingdom, Registration No. 1982084 (England and Wales).<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>_______________________________________________<br>GOAL mailing list<br><a href="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org">GOAL@eprints.org</a><br><a href="http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">Laurent Romary</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">INRIA & HUB-IDSL</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><a href="mailto:laurent.romary@inria.fr">laurent.romary@inria.fr</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre>Elsevier Limited. Registered Office: The Boulevard, Langford Lane, Kidlington, Oxford, OX5 1GB, United Kingdom, Registration No. 1982084 (England and Wales).<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>_______________________________________________<br>GOAL mailing list<br><a href="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org">GOAL@eprints.org</a><br><a href="http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>Elsevier Limited. Registered Office: The Boulevard, Langford Lane, Kidlington, Oxford, OX5 1GB, United Kingdom, Registration No. 1982084 (England and Wales).<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>_______________________________________________<br>GOAL mailing list<br><a href="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org">GOAL@eprints.org</a><br><a href="http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>Elsevier Limited. Registered Office: The Boulevard, Langford Lane, Kidlington, Oxford, OX5 1GB, United Kingdom, Registration No. 1982084 (England and Wales).