<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On 16 May 2012, at 13:42, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Jan Velterop <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:velterop@gmail.com" target="_blank">velterop@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">What I don't understand, Steve, is your apparent hostility to OA articles in hybrid journals. Whence this hostility? Why 'gold-only' journals? Why not 'gold-only' publishers? As long as the OA articles in question are CC-BY, then what's the problem?<div>
<br></div></div></blockquote><div>There are several practical problems with hybrid OA. These are all down to the publisher and could be rectified if they wished. <br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Indeed. It's clear that there are practical problems. But they are not necessarily related to 'hybrid' and as you say, the publishers could rectify those.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br><ul><li>labelling. It is extremely difficult to determine whether something is hybrid OA. Many publishers don't label the OA articles differently from the toll-access. Those that do call them tings like "Free Access", "Author Choice", which are operationally useless. Sometimes it's stamped on the table of contents and not the paper, sometimes the otehr way round, etc.<br></li></ul></div></div></blockquote>Not a consequence of the hybrid model, just of sloppy publishers. <br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><ul><li>
</li><li>licences. Many hybrid articles have no licences. Almost all that do have specifically added CC-NC. This is not BOAI-compliant</li></ul></div></div></blockquote>Indeed. This is also true of some so-called 'OA-only' journals.<br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><ul><li>The readers' rights are often impossible to determine, even by very intelligent and perceptive humans. <br></li></ul></div></div></blockquote>Indeed. This is also true of some so-called 'OA-only' journals.</div><div>My point is, gold OA is only gold OA if clearly covered by a CC-BY licence. Also in hybrid journals.<br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><ul><li>
</li></ul> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><div>Discoverability? Well, CC-BY articles, including those published in hybrid journals, can be deposited in institutional archives without the slightest hesitation (remember, gold *includes* green), if that helps. In fact, if the reasoning is that all of an institute's output should be in that institute's repository, all gold articles should be deposited in any event (and the advantage is even that any FUD has no bearing on gold CC-BY articles).</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br><ul><li>Firstly, not all authors HAVE institutions. Pharma companies? Charities? etc. <br></li></ul></div></div></blockquote>Fair enough. More of a problem for 'green', I would have thought, than for gold OA, even if the latter is in hybrid journals.<br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><ul><li>Even if it's in an IR it's almost undiscoverable unless you are looking for a specific article by someone-you-know-worked/works there.<br></li></ul></div></div></blockquote>Unfortunately true across the board. No specific hybrid problem.<br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><ul><li>
</li></ul></div><div>So if I have an article by Foo (@bar) and Plugh (@XYYZY) how do I know where to look (@foo) or @XYZZY and what are my chances of success? <br><br>Can anyone answer questions like:<br>* find me all hybrid deposited articles in Repo XYZZY - not a chance<br>
* find me all hybrid articles in UK/PMC - not a chance<br>* find me all chemistry hybrid articles<br><br></div></div></blockquote>But the questions should be:</div><div><ul><li>Find me all CC-BY articles in Repo XYZZY</li><li>Find me all CC-BY articles in UK-PMC (or in PMC)</li><li>Find me all chemistry CC-BY articles.</li></ul></div><div>Btw, in Google and Google Scholar (advanced searching) you can search with 'search term' in the search box, 'Creative Commons Attribution' in the 'exact phrase' box, and 'non-commercial' in the exclude box. Advanced searching in Google (though not in Google Scholar, strangely) allows you to limit the search to, say, the UK-PMC site, and then you have what you want. If you leave the primary search box empty, you have every CC-BY article in UK-PMC (but how believable the number – 498,000 – of results is I don't know).</div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>Until we build 21st C search and index engines then all repository-based OA is rooted in the 20th Century<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Again, not a hybrid problem, but a 'green' problem. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br> <br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div></div>In the Bethesda Statement on Open Access (<a href="http://www.earlham.edu/%7Epeters/fos/bethesda.htm#definition" target="_blank">http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/bethesda.htm#definition</a>) a note was included saying that "Open access is a property of individual works, not necessarily journals
or publishers." That seems to me an entirely logical and reasonable stipulation.<div><br></div></div></blockquote><div>I agree completely. And it is appallingly supported by both publishers and Institutional Repositories (many of which do not label anything or blanket-stamp everything as non-resuable (like Cambridge).<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Unfortunately it is. But that's not a problem specifically of the hybrid model. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>
<br></div><div>P. <br></div></div><br>-- <br>Peter Murray-Rust<br>Reader in Molecular Informatics<br>Unilever Centre, Dep. Of Chemistry<br>University of Cambridge<br>CB2 1EW, UK<br>+44-1223-763069<br>
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