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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Jean-Claude Guédon wrote:</span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"For searchability, remember what Clifford Lynch declared years ago in the OA book edited by Neil Jacobs: no real open access without open computation…"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Here's the (self-archived) link:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><a href="http://old.cni.org/staff/cliffpubs/opencomputation.htm">http://old.cni.org/staff/cliffpubs/opencomputation.htm</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>--<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Peter Morgan<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Head of Medical and Science Libraries<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Medical Library<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Cambridge University Library<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Addenbrooke's Hospital<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hills Road<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Cambridge<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>CB2 0SP<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>UK<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>email: <a href="mailto:pbm2@cam.ac.uk">pbm2@cam.ac.uk</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>tel: +44 (0)1223 336757<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>fax: +44 (0)1223 331918<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> goal-bounces@eprints.org [mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jean-Claude Guédon<br><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 15 May 2012 17:13<br><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> goal@eprints.org<br><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [GOAL] Re: [BOAI10] Re: Elsevier's query re: "positive things from publishers that should be encouraged, celebrated, recognized"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>With due respect to Eric, I will disagree with at least the devolution of the first two tasks<br><br>1. The selection of editors should come from scientific communities themselves, not from commercial publishers. This is a good instance where commercial concerns (maximizing profits, etc.) can pollute research concerns. There is also something weird in having commercial publishers holding the key to what may amount to the ultimate academic promotion: being part of an editorial board means power over colleagues; being editor-in-chief even more so. At least, when journals were in the hands of scientific associations, the editorial choice remained inside the community of researchers. What criteria, beyond scientific competence and prestige, may enter into the calculations of a commercial publisher while choosing an editor-in-chief, God knows...<br><br>2. Effective peer review should be organized by peers themselves, by scholars and scientists, not by publishers. Tools to organize this process should ideally be based on free software and available to all in a way that allows disciplinary or speciality tweaking. The Open Journal System, for example, is a good, free, tool to organize peer review and manuscript handling in the editorial phase. Such a tool should be favoured over proprietary tools offered to editors as a way to convince them to join a particular journal stable, and as a way to make them dependent on that tool - yet another way to ensure growing stables of journals.<br><br>Professional "looks" can indeed be given away to commercial publishers. Layout, spelling, perhaps some syntaxic and stylistic help would be nice. But I would stop there. <br><br>As for the "archivable" historic record, I would have to see more details to give my personal blessing to this. Remember how Elsevier pitted Yale against the Royal Dutch Library when the issue of digital preservation began to emerge a dozen or so years ago. I am not sure about the distinction between archived and archivable.<br><br>For searchability, remember what Clifford Lynch declared years ago in the OA book edited by Neil Jacobs: no real open access without open computation. Elsevier and other publishers do code their articles in XML, but provide only impoverished, eye-ball limited, pdf or html files. When one uses Science Direct, all kinds of links pop up to guide us toward other articles, presumably from Elsevier journals. This is part of driving a competition based on impact factors. That is not the kind of searchability we want, even though it is of some value.<br><br>The quest for "alternative comprehensive systems" is exactly what Elsevier attempts to build with Scopus. In so doing, Elsevier picks up on the vision of Robert Maxwell when the latter did everything he could, from cajoling to suing, to get the Science Citation Index away from Garfield's hands. Is this really what we want? If it were open, and open access, Eric's idea would make sense; otherwise, it becomes a formidable source of economic power that will do much harm to scientific communication. In effect, with a universal indexing index and more than 2,000 titles in its stable, Elsevier could become judge and party of scientific value.<br><br>Finally, I am not blaming companies for trying to make money, except when they pollute their environment. Most do so in the physical environment, and they are regulated, or should be. The commercial publishers do it in their virtual environment by driving research competition through tools that also favour their commercial goals. The intense competition around publishing in "prestigious journals" - prestige being defined here as impact factors, although impact factors are a crazy way to measure or compare almost anything - leads to all kinds of practices that go against the grain of scientific research. The rise in retracted papers in the most prestigious journals - prestige being again measured here by IF - is a symptom of this "pollution.<br><br>The rise in journal prices was tentatively explained in my old article, "In Oldenburg's Long Shadow" that came out eleven years ago. It tries at least to account for the artificial creation of an inelastic market around "core journals", the latter being the consequence of the methods used to design the Science Citation Index. Incidentally, the invention of the "core journal" myth - myth because it arbitrarily transforms an operational truncation needed for the practical handling of large numbers of citations into an elite-building club of journals - has been one of the most grievous obstacle to the healthy globalization of science publishing in the whole world. Speak to Brazilians like Abel Packer about this, and he will tell you tons of stories related to this situation. Scientific quality grows along a continuous gradient, not according to a two-tier division between core science, so-called, and the rest.<br><br>Jean-Claude Guédon<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width="100%" style='width:100.0%'><tr><td style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Jean-Claude Guédon<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Professeur titulaire<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Littérature comparée<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Université de Montréal<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></td></tr></table><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Le lundi 14 mai 2012 à 11:38 -0700, Eric F. Van de Velde a écrit :<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>To Alicia: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Here are what I consider the positive contributions by commercial publishers. For any of the positive qualities I mention, it is easy find counterexamples. What matters is that, on the average, the major publishers have done a good job on the following: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>- Select good editorial boards of leading scholars. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>- Develop effective systems for organizing peer review. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>- Produce articles/journals that look professional commensurate with the importance of the scholarship. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>- Produce an archivable historical record of scholarship. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Publishers only receive a marginally passing grade for producing searchable databases of the scholarly record and journals. In the age of iTunes, Netflix, etc., it is inexcusable that to search through scholarship one must buy separate products like the Web of Knowledge in addition to the journal subscriptions. Publishers need to work together to produce alternative comprehensive systems. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Most commercial publishers and some society publishers (like ACS) receive failing grades on cost containment. Because of their importance to academia, scholarly publishers have been blessed with the opportunity to reinvent themselves for the future without the devastating disruption other kinds of publishers faced (newspapers, magazines, etc.). However, instead of taking advantage of this opportunity, scholarly publishers are squandering it for temporary financial gain. Every price increase brings severe disruption closer. On the current path, your CEOs are betting the existence of the company every year. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>About the only company who understands the current information market is Amazon, and everything they do is geared towards driving down costs of the infrastructure. Your competition will not come from Amazon directly, but from every single academic who will be able to produce a high-quality electronic journal from his/her office. There may be only one success for every hundred failed journals in this system, but suppose it is so easy 100,000 try... Your brand/prestige/etc. will carry you only so far. (Amazon is focusing on e-books production now, but it is only a matter of time when they come out with a journal system.) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>To Jean-Claude: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Blaming commercial enterprises for making too much money is like blaming scholars for having too many good ideas. Making money is their purpose. They will stop raising prices if doing so is in their self-interest. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>The real question is why the scholarly information market is so screwed up that publishers are in a position to keep raising prices. I am blaming site licenses (<a href="http://scitechsociety.blogspot.com/2011/07/what-if-libraries-were-problem.html">http://scitechsociety.blogspot.com/2011/07/what-if-libraries-were-problem.html</a> and <a href="http://scitechsociety.blogspot.com/2011/09/publishers-dilemma.html">http://scitechsociety.blogspot.com/2011/09/publishers-dilemma.html</a>), but I am open to alternative explanations. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>--Eric.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><a href="http://scitechsociety.blogspot.com">http://scitechsociety.blogspot.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>Google Voice: (626) 898-5415 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Telephone: (626) 376-5415<br>Skype chat, voice, or web-video: efvandevelde<br>E-mail: <a href="mailto:eric.f.vandevelde@gmail.com">eric.f.vandevelde@gmail.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Peter Murray-Rust <<a href="mailto:pm286@cam.ac.uk">pm286@cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Jean-Claude,<br>This is a great analysis and says almost exactly some of what I was planning to say.<br><br>We cannot de facto trust the publishers to work in our interests. There was a time when this was posssible - but no longer. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br><br><br><br><br>-- <br>Peter Murray-Rust<br>Reader in Molecular Informatics<br>Unilever Centre, Dep. Of Chemistry<br>University of Cambridge<br>CB2 1EW, UK<br><a href="tel:%2B44-1223-763069">+44-1223-763069</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>GOAL mailing list<br><a href="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org">GOAL@eprints.org</a><br><a href="http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>GOAL mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a href="mailto:GOAL@eprints.org">GOAL@eprints.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a href="http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote></div></body></html>