This is a very good summary - as a;ways RP gets to the essence with clarity.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Richard Poynder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ricky@richardpoynder.co.uk" target="_blank">ricky@richardpoynder.co.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
List members will doubtless correct me if I am wrong, but it seems
to me that the nub of this issue is that Peter Murray-Rust believes
that when a research library pays a subscription for a scholarly
journal (or a collection of journals) the subscription should give
researchers at that institution the right both to read the content
with their eyeballs, and to mine it with their machines -- and that
this should be viewed as an automatic right. <br>
<br></div></blockquote><div>That is my view. I cannot comment on most publishers' views. The material I have received from them in response to questions about this issue does not, in general, have Richard's clarity.<br>
<br>[...]<br>
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
There is also the question of what researchers can do with the the
data once they have extracted it, which seems to me to be a more
complex issue.<br>
<br></div></blockquote><div>It has not been as heavily discussed as access has. <br></div><div> <br>[...]<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
On whether this is an OA issue, and so relevant to GOAL, I would
suggest that it is partly an OA issue, and partly not an OA issue.
One might argue that it is not an OA issue because it concerns
access to subscription content, rather than OA content. On the other
hand, one could argue that it is an OA issue, since both Stevan
Harnad and Peter Murray-Rust are asking for access to subscription
content. Where Stevan is asking for eyeball access to this material,
Peter is asking for machine access. <br></div></blockquote><div><br>The problem is partly that there are very few other forums other than GOAL for the communal discussion of matters of this sort. One effect or cause (I leave that to historians) is that much discourse takes place fragmentedly on blogs. (There are places where news is reported but that is one-way) .IMO this is a pity<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
I realise, of course, that Stevan is happy to have access to the
version of a paper as it exists prior to publication (the
pre-print), but, nevertheless, he is asking for access to papers
that have been published in subscription journals. <br>
<br>
Either way, since this issue is inextricably bound up with
discussion of gratis vs. libre OA, I think it is relevant and
appropriate to be discussed on GOAL. If others disagrees, please say
so.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br></font></span></div></blockquote><div>I would urge that GOAL be seen as the natural forum for discussion of the rights and wrongs of re-use. Otherwise it will be necessary to set up somewhere else. <br><br>I also believe that textmining is set to take off rapidly and that there will be a need for a list related to technical issues - but that should be distinct.<br>
<br>P.<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
Richard Poynder<br>
GOAL Moderator</font></span><div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 12/05/2012 09:23, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">[Note that as this is a moderated list my replies may
not appear immediately - this may give the impression that I am
ignoring mails when I am not].<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Wise,
Alicia (ELS-OXF) <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:A.Wise@elsevier.com" target="_blank">A.Wise@elsevier.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Hi
Peter,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks
for this. I’ve communicated that we are happy in
principle for you to mine our content,</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
Good - that is agreed.<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">
and there are only some practical issues to resolve.
We have successfully concluded the technical
discussion, and I believe you, your colleagues, and my
technical colleagues are all happy with the proposed
technical mechanism. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
I don' think this is true at all. Rather than allowing us to
mine the actual journal articles in siti you have pointed us
at some zip files. We have no idea how comprehensive these are
or how up to date. We understand publication of articles, we
do not understand your zip files. <br>
<br>
Getting content from the published journal articles is trivial
and is the same mechanism for all publishers. Fine the DOI,
download it. Getting articles from 100 publishers through 100
different arcane mechanisms is a nightmare. If you want to
make life easy for us, let us use the articles.<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">
Next, I’ld like to double-check that I have correctly
understood what you and your colleagues will do and
who will have access to which content/extracts. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
I will extract factual data and I shall publish them Openly to
the whole world. For your interest my first research is likely
to be in the phylogenetic trees of arthropods - whcih impacts
on trillions of dollars (sic) of human welfare. Polination
allone is 150 billion dollars. I shall not publish discursize
text unless it is required. I shall not publish the
"publishers PDF". But I shall publish anything that represents
facts, in botha critical and uncritical manner.<br>
<br>
And in the area below - just one project, I expect to use
10,000 articles per year. So , in principle, I intend to mine
millions per year. <br>
<br>
I shall take silence as assent that this is agreed. <br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">
Finally, we have an existing agreement with the U of
Cambridge library and we need to ensure there is some
language in that agreement – or a side letter - to
enable content-mining. We aren’t far off at all – and
I suspect we could resolve this in 1, possibly 2,
quick conversations. If you prefer not to interact
with the Cambridge librarians, I can do this
separately.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
The librarian has indicated that it is important that I be
allowed to text-mine and believes that publishers should set
out terms. I will ask her permission whether I can reproduce
her letter publicly. She does not believe I should be wasting
my research time negotiation with indivdiual publishers and
she sets out one publisher (not Elsevier) as having made their
terms clear. So the first thing is for you to say something in
plain language which says what I can do. <br>
<br>
I do not regard this as a negotiation. I believe I have rights
and will - with otherrs such as RichardP be putting out those
rights shortly. If libraries wish to agree on a more limited
use I shall be unhappy with them.<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Perhaps
it would be helpful for me to clarify the important
role that I believe the Cambridge library has to
play. This role is not to vet your research to see if
you can carry it out, but to ensure that the language
necessary to enable this to happen is included in
their various agreements with publishers. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
And to take out the restrictions that you have added.<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> This
is the way that libraries have been able to create the
existing information environment on campus where you,
and your colleagues, can access e-journals from home
or your office or out in the field. All the
agreements/arrangements/technology that the library
has put in place to create this environment, and to
ensure that it is easy to access and use, are
generally invisible to researchers - even those who
use this information environment on a daily basis. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
And we pay enormous amounts for it. My grant income is paying
Elsevier, including you. IMO it is one fo the most inefficient
uses of public money. <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">This
is the sort of environment/experience needed for
researchers who wish to text mine as well. As an
early adopter – indeed a pioneer in text mining – you
are forging a trail. Librarians will help to maintain
that trail so that many, many others can follow easily
in your footsteps.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
Let me be clear. This discussion is wasting my time - I could
be doing research. If I have to do this with every publisher
it will destroy this research.<br>
<br>
If I leave it to my librarians, then they may well agree to
the awful and restrictive deal that Elsevier forced on Heather
Piwowar at UBC where one researcher was given permission for
one project. She is not allowed to publish the full research
openly so it's of no use to me.<br>
<br>
So I reiterate:<br>
* a public statement that I can mine Elsevier journals in any
amount for whatever purpose and in whatever form.<br>
* that I can publish the factual information extracted without
restriction.<br>
<br>
I have no details of the negotiations you are transacting with
my library - I am a scientist not a contract negotiator. I
have made my wishes very clear to the library.<br>
<br>
P.<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">With
kind wishes, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Alicia</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#7f7f7f">Dr
Alicia Wise</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#7f7f7f">Director
of Universal Access</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#ff9900">Elsevier
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">I
The Boulevard I Langford Lane I Kidlington I Oxford I
OX5 1GB</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">P:
<a href="tel:%2B44%20%280%291865%20843317" value="+441865843317" target="_blank">+44 (0)1865
843317</a></span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">
I </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">M:
<a href="tel:%2B44%20%280%29%207823%20536%20826" value="+447823536826" target="_blank">+44 (0) 7823
536 826</a> I E: <a href="mailto:a.wise@elsevier.com" target="_blank">a.wise@elsevier.com</a>
I </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">Twitter:
@wisealic</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" target="_blank">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:goal-bounces@eprints.org" target="_blank">goal-bounces@eprints.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Peter Murray-Rust<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 11 May 2012 23:47</span></p>
<div><br>
<b>To:</b> Global Open Access List (Successor of
AmSci)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [GOAL] Re: OA and scholarly publishers</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 1:16 PM,
Richard Poynder <<a href="mailto:ricky@richardpoynder.co.uk" target="_blank">ricky@richardpoynder.co.uk</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Many
thanks to Alicia Wise for starting a new
conversation thread. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Let’s
recall that Alicia’s question was, “what
positive things are established scholarly
publishers doing to facilitate the various
visions for open access and future scholarly
communications that should be encouraged,
celebrated, recognized?”</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Alicia Wise already knows my reply - she has had
enough email from me. The publishers show
withdraw contractual restrictions on
content-mining. That's all they need to do.<br>
<br>
My university has paid Elsevier for subscription
to the content in Elsevier journals. I believe I
have the right to mine the content. Elsevier has
written a contract which forbids me to use this
in any way other than reading with human
eyeballs - I cannot crawl it, index it, extract
content for whatever purpose. I have spent THREE
years trying to deal with Elsevier and get a
straight answer. <br>
<br>
See <a href="http://blogs.ch.cam.ac.uk/pmr/2011/11/27/textmining-my-years-negotiating-with-elsevier/" target="_blank">http://blogs.ch.cam.ac.uk/pmr/2011/11/27/textmining-my-years-negotiating-with-elsevier/</a><br>
<br>
The most recent "discussions" ended with Alicia
Wise suggesting that she and Cambridge
librarians discuss my proposed research and see
if they could agree to my carrying it out. I let
the list decide whether this is a constructive
offer or a delaying tactic. It certainly does
not scale if all researchers have to get the
permission of their librarians and every
publisher before they can mine the content in
the literature. And why should a publisher
decide what research I may or may not do?<br>
<br>
All of this is blogged on <a href="http://blogs.cam.ac.uk/pmr" target="_blank">http://blogs.cam.ac.uk/pmr</a><br>
<br>
Yes - I asked 6 toll-access publishers for
permission to mine their content before I
submitted my opinion to the Hargreaves enquiry.
Of the 6 publishers (which we in the process of
summarising - this is hard because of the
wooliness of the language) the approximate
answers were:<br>
1 possibly<br>
4 mumble (e.g. "let's discuss it with your
librarians")<br>
1 no (good old ACS pulls no punches - I'd rather
have a straight "no" than "mumble")<br>
<br>
In no other market would vendors be allowed to
get away with such awful customer service. A
straight question deserves a straight answer,
but not in scholarly publishing.<br>
<br>
Just in case anyone doesn't understand content
mining, the technology is straightforward. The
only reason it's not done is because
Universities are afraid of publishers. I
estimate that tens of billions of dollars worth
of value is lost through being forbidden to mine
the scholarly literature.<br>
<br>
If Alicia Wise can say "yes" to me unreservedly,
I'll be happy.<br>
<br>
P.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
GOAL mailing list<br>
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<a href="http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal" target="_blank">http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Peter Murray-Rust<br>Reader in Molecular Informatics<br>Unilever Centre, Dep. Of Chemistry<br>University of Cambridge<br>CB2 1EW, UK<br>+44-1223-763069<br>