[GOAL] Re: Update on statement against Elsevier's new "sharing" policy

Fri Jun 12 08:56:58 BST 2015

Thank you Didier for this video. It will be helpfull for african French
speaking countries, which seem to be outside of this debate.
I spread it in our network www.projetsoha.org and i hope that now ours
leaders are guided to take the Best decision about publishers like
Elsevier.
Le 12 juin 2015 05:57, <didier.pelaprat at inserm.fr> a écrit :

>  Hi all,
>
>
> Many thanks, Marc, for this very true translation.
>
> I began my career as a chemist engineer and further shifted to biology.
> During 35 years in labs (I only left the labs 5 years ago, for the
> Scientific Information field), from the very beginning, all my work was
> conducted in collaboration with pharmaceutical companies, small, big, very
> big ones.
>
> What I experienced during all these years, and what I also try to
> experience now in my relationships with the actors of the private sector in
> this field, ie publishers, agents and so on, is mutual respect, which
> represents the basis of a real and efficient partnership.
>
> Mutual respect is based on the fact that every partner knows what are the
> constraints of the others, because every partner tells what they are.
>
> In mutual respect, there is "mutual".
>
>
>
> What Mr Rodriguez tells is the reality of any company. This is why I
> consider that Mr Rodriguez respects us, and I in turn respect that.
>
> I think, first, that double speak is not necessary and, second, that it
> destroys rather than construct.
>
>
>
> Thus, Alicia (and Eric too, if you read that. First fire your common
> coach):
>
> Let us take it like this.
>
> Elsevier makes profit on scientific publishing. Big profit. Normal: they
> are not a charity.
>
> Elsevier is a very dynamic company, which perfectly knows how to react in
> order to maintain and increase profit.
>
> As a very dynamic and reactive company, Elsevier succeeded, for years, to
> reorient, invest, develop and diversify activities, in order to find
> revenues in other sectors whenever the income in some others did decrease.
>
> For Elsevier as for any company, "commercial" ones as well as some of the
> so-called "non profit" ones which do it:
>
> - compelling the authors to sign that they reserve the exclusivity to the
> company, as if they had written a novel and been paid for that
>
> - compelling the authors to sign that they tranfer all their patrimonial
> rights to the company for eternity
>
> - imposing embargoes
>
> - imposing APCs up to 5.000 $ (in addition to the "normal" page charges in
> hybrid journals,)
>
> means that the company  decided to make, maintain, and increase profit on
> the publication of the scientific work , at the expense of the missions,
> the fund availability and the interests of the scientific community and the
> institutions which employ them, ie at the expense of the gain which can be
> brought by science to the whole society.
>
>
>
> Tell me that.
>
> I will trust it and, even if I do not find that decision is in accordance
> with what I consider to be the social role of a company, I will respect you
> in having said that.
>
> But never call us "partner".
>
> And never try to tell me that you did it for our benefit.
>
> Lying does belong to the elements that make a relationship be fruitful and
> sustainable between social actors.
>
>
>
> There is a quebecois term I find very illustrative of this kind of
> behavor: "enfirouaper " (in fur wrapped).
>
> I hate feeling that somebody tries to m'enfirouaper.
>
> I positively hate it.
>
>
>
> Didier
>
>
>
>
>
> Le 11-06-2015 22:13, Couture Marc a écrit :
>
>  Hi all,
>
>
>
> I found the entire “Papiers dorés” video highly interesting. It features
> mainly high-profile French scientists, who all describe the dominant
> publication/evaluation model as inadequate and doomed to be superseded in
> the near (or not-so-near) future.
>
>
>
> Here is my rough translation of some excerpts of the interview with Daniel
> Rodriguez, director of Elsevier Masson SAS (a branch of Reed Elsevier
> group), to which Dider alludes.
>
>
>
> Rodriguez speaking; we don’t hear the question(s).
>
>
>
> (14:22) “It’s like you opposed – here I caricature – a financial and a
> scientific community: there’s no common ground. Thus you oppose an approach
> that, whichever way you present it, remains first and above all a *profit*
> – [more precisely] *profit increase* – approach to, let’s say, a much
> more scientific, “noble” goal related to the global progress of science. In
> a certain way, I don’t think these two universes can meet each other.”
>
>
>
> (16:08) “We are a group whose goal is earning money, so the traditional
> model remains extremely lucrative. I repeat: we are a publicly traded
> group, whether we want it or not; we mustn’t bury our head in the sand.”
>
>
>
> Marc Couture
>
>
>
> *De :* Didier Pélaprat [mailto:didier.pelaprat at inserm.fr]
> *Envoyé :* 11 juin 2015 05:14
> *À :* 'Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)'
> *Cc :* frederique.bordignon at enpc.fr; Couture Marc
> *Objet :* RE: [GOAL] Re: Update on statement against Elsevier's new
> "sharing" policy
>
>
>
> Hi Alicia,
>
>
>
> One question puzzles me, studying your interventions everywhere explaining
> the changes in policy :
>
>
>
> Seems you have the same coach as Erik Merkel-Sobotta, from Springer, don’t
> you?
>
>
>
>
> http://poynder.blogspot.fr/2013/06/open-access-springer-tightens-rules-on.html
>
>
>
>
>
> For those who understand French: another explanation from Elsevier, that
> sounds more realistic on the aims, objectives and relationships between
> Elsevier and the scientific communities; it’s called “papiers dorés”
> (“Golden papers”)
>
>
>
> http://vimeo.com/127546263
>
>
>
> Sorry not to have the English translation yet.  Should be available
> probably in july.
>
>
>
>
>
> have a nice day.
>
>
>
> Didier
>
>
>
> *De :* goal-bounces at eprints.org [mailto:goal-bounces at eprints.org
> <goal-bounces at eprints.org>] *De la part de* Wise, Alicia (ELS-OXF)
> *Envoyé :* jeudi 11 juin 2015 02:21
> *À :* Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)
> *Cc :* Wise, Alicia (ELS-OXF)
> *Objet :* [GOAL] Re: Update on statement against Elsevier's new "sharing"
> policy
>
>
>
> Hi Marc,
>
>
>
> Apologies for the delay in replying – I have been on the road this week.
>
>
>
> The introduction of tags was an idea we developed after consultation with
> large, mainly commercial, sharing platforms such as social collaboration
> networks. For them the challenge is to handle a tsunami of user-uploaded
> content in an automated way.  We are working to implement tagging of both
> final articles and manuscripts which will include information to allow
> platforms to automatically detect what version of the article has been
> uploaded along with other key information such as the embargo end date. The
> availability of these metadata on full-text uploads will be particularly
> helpful to them.
>
>
>
> Repositories are free to extract and use the data from the tags if they
> would like to do so.  We will also make these metadata available for
> everyone to use via our ScienceDirect API. However, not all repositories
> like the idea of a variety of APIs and some express the wish of a more
> simple method. Tagging therefore helps us to cater for differing platform
> needs.
>
>
>
> We recognize that the development of an industry-wide API would be
> desirable to avoid the need for repositories to integrate with multiple
> APIs, and we would support this approach.
>
>
>
> With kind wishes,
>
> Alicia
>
>
>
> Dr Alicia Wise
>
> Director of Access and Policy
>
> Elsevier I The Boulevard I Langford Lane I Kidlington I Oxford I OX5 1GB
>
> M: +44 (0) 7823 536 826 I E: a.wise at elsevier.com
>
> *Twitter: @wisealic*
>
>
>
> *From:* goal-bounces at eprints.org [mailto:goal-bounces at eprints.org
> <goal-bounces at eprints.org>] *On Behalf Of *Couture Marc
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 04, 2015 9:03 PM
> *To:* Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)
> *Subject:* [GOAL] Re: Update on statement against Elsevier's new
> "sharing" policy
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> Elsevier has a record of pretending to make its decisions (at least
> partly) in the interests of researchers, or research, and now repositories.
>
>
>
> One example is the introduction of tagged manuscripts. I don’t really
> understand how it will work and what will be gained by authors or
> repositories if they use these instead of the usual author-supplied
> manuscripts, with metadata residing in the repository itself.
>
>
>
> The new policy seems to imply that either the author-provided or the
> Elsevier-tagged manuscripts could be self-archived, but like much of the
> policy, it’s far from clear.
>
>
>
> In this page (
> http://www.elsevier.com/connect/elsevier-updates-its-policies-perspectives-and-services-on-article-sharing),
> it is stated that in order to help repositories “ensure self-archived
> accepted manuscripts can be made available in line with publisher’s hosting
> & posting policies”, Elsevier will be “taking steps to tag all manuscripts
> from the point of acceptance with key metadata”. And also this: “IRs will
> have access to the tagged manuscripts if an author self-archives.”
>
>
>
> What I understand here is that these embedded metadata could be used by
> Elsevier to automatically, and more efficiently, monitor policy  compliance
> (notably embargo). Which they have certainly the right to do, by the way.
> The point is: do we have, or wish to work for them on this?
>
>
>
> Finally, I suggest that you read the Comments section of  the above-cited
> page, especially Ms Wise’s answers, which are - how to say it - more to the
> point than what I’d been expected to find.
>
>
>
> Marc Couture
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Elsevier Limited. Registered Office: The Boulevard, Langford Lane,
> Kidlington, Oxford, OX5 1GB, United Kingdom, Registration No. 1982084,
> Registered in England and Wales.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GOAL mailing listGOAL at eprints.orghttp://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GOAL mailing list
> GOAL at eprints.org
> http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/goal
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.ecs.soton.ac.uk/pipermail/goal/attachments/20150612/3606258a/attachment-0001.html 