[GOAL] Re: A creature of its own making?

Mon Dec 28 20:49:44 GMT 2015

There's much that I agree with in Richard's post. I can only see 
'flipping' and hybrid journals as temporary measures – though quite 
possibly necessary ones – in the reform scientific communication will 
have to undergo in the longer run. I regard the academic iconolatry, 
even idolatry, exhibited towards journal brands as damaging to 
scientific communication. Hybrid journals enable the veneration, as 
Richard calls it, to continue. And with that, of course, comes the 
monopoloid position journals find themselves in that allows them to 
exploit the perceived academic needs, resulting in excessive cost of the 
whole publishing system. You can't really blame the publishers for much 
of what's going on. Of course they defend their money-spinning 
operations, but what they do largely comes down to picking up the money 
that academia throws at them. They are not the root of the problem, they 
are merely a symptom.

Jan Velterop

On 28/12/2015 16:07, Richard Poynder wrote:
> On journal “flipping”:
>
> Jean-Claude Guédon’s comments on journal “flipping” that I referred to were
> made in the context of the Max Planck Society’s proposal to flip commercial
> subscription journals to OA business models. I can only repeat that in the
> long run this will benefit legacy publishers like Elsevier far more than it
> will ever benefit the research community.
>
> The same dangers are inherent in the various OA Big Deals that the Dutch
> Universities (through VSNU) have been agreeing with publishers like Wiley,
> Springer and Elsevier. Since important details of how these deals will work
> (and what they will cost) appear to be subject to NDAs it is hard to say
> with confidence, but the end game would seem to be much the same: journal
> flipping.
>
> On animus:
>
> What Jean-Claude’s criticism of large publishers like Elsevier and Wiley
> omits is the role that the research community has played in their rise to
> power, a role that it continues to play. In fact, not only has the research
> community been complicit in the rise and rise of the publishing oligarchy
> that Jean-Claude so deprecates, but one could argue that it created it —
> i.e. this oligarchy is a creature of its own making.
>
> After all, it is the research community that funds these publishers, it is
> the research community that submits papers to these publishers (and signs
> over copyright in the process), and it is the research community that
> continues to venerate the brands (essentially a product of the impact
> factor) that allow these publishers to earn the high profits that
> Jean-Claude decries.
>
> And by now seeking to flip this oligarchy’s journals to OA the research
> community appears to be intent on perpetuating its power (and doubtless
> profits).
>
> One might therefore want to suggest that Jean-Claude’s animus is
> misdirected.
>
> Richard Poynder
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: goal-bounces at eprints.org [mailto:goal-bounces at eprints.org] On Behalf
> Of Guédon Jean-Claude
> Sent: 27 December 2015 17:43
> To: Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci) <goal at eprints.org>
> Subject: [GOAL] Re: "Let them pay or let them wait"
>
> It all depends on how the flipping is done. Flipping a journal, especially
> if the title is not owned by the publisher, can be done in such a way as to
> avoid benefiting the (big) publishers. The general rule claimed by Richard
> Poynder is inaccurate.  Incidentally, for me, an OA journal should be free
> to users, and gratis to authors. Full stop.
>
> As for any animus against Elsevier and the other big, commercial,
> international members of the publishing oligarchy, I will readily admit to
> it: when I see the extreme budgetary problems of our libraries, the tactics
> used to undermine important public  projects such as Scielo, the 30-40%
> rates of profit of the oligarchs, the abuse and manipulations of impact
> factors, etc., I do not see how one cannot exert some degree of animus...I
> have witnessed at close range how Wiley behaved with the library of my
> university when the latter resolved to unravel the big deal with that
> particular oligarch. This event alone would be good enough a  reason to
> express animus toward the oligarchs.
>
> Alicia Wise, indeed, closely adheres to the forms of politeness. Alas form
> has never been a good way to guarantee substance. It is not enough to sign
> "kind regards" to ensure true kindness.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Jean-Claude Guédon
>
>
> ________________________________________
> De : goal-bounces at eprints.org [goal-bounces at eprints.org] de la part de
> Richard Poynder [ricky at richardpoynder.co.uk] Envoyé : jeudi 24 décembre 2015
> 14:45 À : 'Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci)'
> Objet : [GOAL] Re: "Let them pay or let them wait"
>
> God forbid that I should find myself defending a for-profit publisher, and
> God forbid that I should charge anyone with speaking with a forked tongue,
> but I cannot help but think that OA advocates sometimes allow their animus
> towards Elsevier (and its employees) to get the better of their good wisdom.
>
> I also cannot help but point out that on a separate mailing Jean-Claude
> Guédon has been arguing that "flipping" subscription journals to OA models
> is as valid a way of achieving open access as self-archiving. Yet, flipping
> subscription journals will in the long run benefit legacy publishers like
> Elsevier far more than it will ever benefit the research community.
>
> That aside, I am not aware that Alicia Wise has ever been anything other
> than polite to members of this list. It does not show open access in a good
> light that every time she posts to the list her comments generate the kind
> of response we see below.
>
> Richard Poynder
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: goal-bounces at eprints.org [mailto:goal-bounces at eprints.org] On Behalf
> Of Guédon Jean-Claude
> Sent: 24 December 2015 17:32
> To: Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci) <goal at eprints.org>
> Subject: [GOAL] Re: "Let them pay or let them wait"
>
> Hear! Hear!
>
> Alicia Wise always speaks with a forked tongue! I wonder how much she is
> paid to practise this dubious art.
>
> Self-archiving as described by Stevan is the right way to go.
>
> Happy holidays to all those exploited by Elsevier!
>
> Jean-Claude Guédon
>
>
> ________________________________
> De : goal-bounces at eprints.org [goal-bounces at eprints.org] de la part de
> Stevan Harnad [amsciforum at gmail.com] Envoyé : mercredi 23 décembre 2015
> 08:18 À : Global Open Access List (Successor of AmSci) Objet : [GOAL] "Let
> them pay or let them wait"
>
> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 2:42 AM, Wise, Alicia (ELS-OXF)
> <A.Wise at elsevier.com<mailto:A.Wise at elsevier.com>> wrote:
> Hi Thomas -
>
> All our authors, no matter where in the world they are, have both gold and
> green Open Access publishing options.
>
> With best wishes for a peaceful and relaxing holiday season,
>
> Alicia
> Elsevier Limited. Registered Office: The Boulevard, Langford Lane,
> Kidlington, Oxford, OX5 1GB, United Kingdom, Registration No. 1982084,
> Registered in England and Wales.
>
> Translation of Alicia’s Xmas message:
>
> "Let them pay (gold fees) or let them wait (green embargoes)."
>
> I add only that they can (if they have any sense at all) completely ignore
> all of Elsevier’s absurd, incoherent, and ever-changing
> double-talk<http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?serendipity%5Baction%5D=
> search&serendipity%5BsearchTerm%5D=systematic&serendipity%5BsearchButton%5D=
> %3E> about green and make their refereed, revised final drafts green OA
> immediately upon acceptance for  publication -- by self-archiving them.
>
> With best wishes for a peaceful and relaxing holiday season,
>
> Stevan
>
> On 22 Dec 2015, at 17:39, Thomas Hervé Mboa Nkoudou
> <thomasmboa at gmail.com<mailto:thomasmboa at gmail.com>> wrote:
> On this post,
>
> http://www.scidev.net/global/publishing/news/elsevier-african-open-access-jo
> urnal.html,
>
> Elsevier plans an African Open Journals, using the Gold voice. But for me,
> it is not the right way for us (Africa).
>
> I want all GOAL members to join me in an open letter adressed to Elsevier,
> with the objective to claim the full green voice for Africa.
>
> Since I am an African searcher, your support will be helpful
>
>
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