<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra">On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Sandy Thatcher <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sgt3@psu.edu" target="_blank">sgt3@psu.edu</a>></span> wrote:</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
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<div>Stevan is absolutely right on this point, and it behooves
publishers who operate hybrid journals to make their finances
transparent. Otherwise, there will always remain the suspicion that
the publishers are double-dipping.</div></div></blockquote><div><blockquote style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><strong><a href="http://exchanges.wiley.com/blog/2013/10/07/open-access-in-the-uk-will-gold-or-green-prevail/#comment-1096460637" style="color:rgb(0,51,102)">Alice Meadows</a></strong> (Social Relations at <a href="http://exchanges.wiley.com/blog/author/alicejmeadows/page/2/" style="color:rgb(0,51,102)">Wiley</a>, and one of the "chefs" in <a href="http://scholarlykitchen.sspnet.org/2012/07/09/welcome-our-newest-chef-alice-meadows/" style="color:rgb(0,51,102)">SSP's Scholarly Kitchen</a>) replied:<blockquote>
"<em>Most major publishers, including Wiley, now have a policy on subscription pricing for hybrid journals (aka double dipping). Ours can be found <a href="http://olabout.wiley.com/WileyCDA/Section/id-816521.html" style="color:rgb(0,51,102)">here</a>.</em>"</blockquote>
</blockquote><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">As I have already pointed out in my reply to Bob Campbell (below) what matters incomparably more (to research, researchers, and the tax-payers who fund them) than whether or not a hybrid Gold publisher double-dips is </span><em style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">whether the publisher embargoes Green</em><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> -- because when a hybrid Gold publisher embargoes Green, authors who want to make their article immediately OA are forced to pay for hybrid Gold -- </span><em style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">with nothing in exchange for the money except freedom from the embargo</em><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">. (Any added frills co-bundled with it were not asked for, hence certainly no justification for being forced to pay for immediate OA in order to be freed from a publisher-imposed embargo.) </span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><a href="http://www.sherpa.ac.uk/romeo/search.php?id=580&fIDnum=|&mode=simple&la=en" style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Wiley-Blackwell</a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> is among the </span><a href="http://www.sherpa.ac.uk/romeo/statistics.php" style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">40%</a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> of publishers that embargo Green OA. Hence (unlike a hybrid Gold publisher like <a href="http://www.sherpa.ac.uk/romeo/search.php?id=27&fIDnum=%7C&mode=advanced&la=en">Cambridge University Press</a></span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">, which does </span><em style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">not</em><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> embargo Green) Wiley-Blackwell is forcing authors to pay for hybrid Gold OA as the only way to provide immediate OA to their articles. That the extra revenue from hybrid Gold revenue (despite Bob Campbell's attempt to justify hybrid Gold revenue as not constituting double-dipping at all) is not in fact being double-dipped by Wiley -- but given back as a </span><a href="https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&lr=&q=harnad%20OR%20Harnad%20OR%20archivangelism+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&ie=UTF-8&tbm=blg&tbs=qdr:m&num=100&c2coff=1&safe=active#c2coff=1&hl=en&lr=&q=rebate+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&safe=active&tbas=0&tbm=blg" style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">rebate</a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> to all subscribing institutions -- is no consolation for the author who has to pay it, in full, hence again no justification for being forced to pay for immediate OA in order to be freed from a publisher-imposed embargo. (Hybrid Gold authors did not ask to subsidize worldwide institutional subscription prices with their individual payment.)</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Using OA embargoes to guarantee current subscription revenues is not a fair or acceptable means of </span><a href="http://www.dlib.org/dlib/july10/harnad/07harnad.html" style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">transition to universal, affordable, sustainable OA</a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> and will inevitably be exposed and seen to be exactly what it is: an attempt by (part of) the publishing community to hold the research community </span><a href="https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&lr=&q=harnad%20OR%20Harnad%20OR%20archivangelism+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&ie=UTF-8&tbm=blg&tbs=qdr:m&num=100&c2coff=1&safe=active#c2coff=1&hl=en&lr=&q=hostage+blogurl:http%3A%2F%2Fopenaccess.eprints.org%2F&safe=active&tbm=blg" style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">hostage</a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> to sustaining their current subscription revenues -- hence over-priced (and potentially double-dipped) Fool's Gold, paid over and above what must continue to be paid by institutions for subscriptions -- instead of allowing Green OA to induce the natural evolution toward post-Green </span><a href="https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&lr=&q=harnad%20OR%20Harnad%20OR%20archivangelism+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&ie=UTF-8&tbm=blg&tbs=qdr:m&num=100&c2coff=1&safe=active#c2coff=1&hl=en&lr=&q=%22fair+gold%22+blogurl:http%3A%2F%2Fopenaccess.eprints.org%2F&safe=active&tbm=blg" style="color:rgb(0,51,102);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Fair Gold</a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">.</span></div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>
<div>At 7:40 AM -0400 10/25/13, Stevan Harnad wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://exchanges.wiley.com/blog/2013/10/07/open-access-in-the-uk-will-gold-or-green-prevail/#comment-1094488522" target="_blank"><span></span>Bob Campbell</a> wrote on the Wiley blog:<br>
<blockquote>"<a href="http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/1061-.html" target="_blank"><i>Stevan</i></a><i> accuses me of much conflation yet he himself
conflates APCs and subscriptions when commenting on double-dipping.
APCs are not paying for the 'same articles' paid for by
subscriptions. Publishers have always charged separately for different
services/products. For example, a medical journal may charge a
pharmaceutical company for reprints, advertising space and
subscriptions. These are priced separately and charged separately, and
accounted for separately in the publisher's financial management of
the title. The pharmaceutical company does not demand that the cost of
buying advertising space is offset against any library
subscriptions.</i>"<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Bob Campbell defends double-dipping by
citing journal charges for the purchase of reprints, advertising and
subscriptions. That's all fine.<br>
<br>
But what we are discussing here is the cost of<i> publication</i>, not
of extra products or services.<br>
<br>
Worldwide institutional subscriptions pay the cost of publication (in
full, and fulsomely). It is not at all clear what extra product or
service is being paid for when an author pays for hybrid Gold OA (for
the paper he has given the publisher, for free, to sell).<br>
<br>
Of course it's an extra source of revenue to the hybrid Gold publisher
to force the author to pay that extra money (for whatever it is that
they are paying for). And let there be no doubt that the payment is
indeed<i> forced</i> (if the hybrid Gold publisher embargoes Green).
Is the extra "service," then,<i> exemption from the
publisher-imposed Green OA embargo</i>?<br>
<br>
(Note: If the publisher is among the <a href="http://www.sherpa.ac.uk/romeo/statistics.php" target="_blank">60%</a> who
endorse immediate Green OA, then none of my objections matter in the
least, and I couldn't care less if the publisher earns some extra
revenue from those authors who are silly enough to pay for hybrid Gold
OA when they could have had the same, cost-free, by just providing
Green OA.)<br>
<br>
For the publisher who embargoes Green and then pockets the extra
revenue derived from hybrid Gold, over and above subscriptions,
without even reducing subscription charges proportionately, is indeed
charging twice for publication, i.e., double-dipping (and offering
absolutely nothing in return except<i> freedom from the publisher's
own Green OA embargo</i>).<br>
<br>
Subscriptions pay the cost of publication. Print reprints are an extra
product. And adverts are an extra service. But hybrid Gold OA is
merely fool's gold, if paid unforced. -- And if forced by a publish
embargo, there is a word to describe the practice, but I will not use
it, as a publisher has already once threatened to sue me for libel if
I doŠ So let's just call it double-dipping, with no extra product or
service...<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><b>Stevan Harnad</b></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<u></u><pre>--
</pre><u></u>
<div>Sanford G. Thatcher<br>
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