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<span class="st"><em></em><em></em><em></em></span>
<br />
<br />Though this be madness, yet there is method in it. I think that could be said on Elsevier's OA
<br />policy, because of two reasons. Firstly, it quite effectively hinders OA. Secondly, however badly
<br />constructed this OA policy is, one can see that from a publisher's perspective, mandates like the NIH mandate are threatening. As a side effect, other mandates - which would cover only a tiny fraction of the articles, and does not designate a single target repository are also affected, regardless that these hardly affect any publishers' profits.
<br />
<br />Andras
<br /><font size="2"><b>
<br />On Fri, 3 May 2013 07:57:43 +0100, David Prosser wrote</b>
<br />> I agree
with Andras and I cannot see how any publisher who has a policy along the lines
of:
<br />>
<br />> <blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 40px; border: medium none; padding: 0px;" class="webkit-indent-blockquote">
<br />> You may make your author
version freely available without embargo unless you are mandated (by funder or
institution) to do so, in which case you may not make your author version freely
available without embargo</blockquote>
<br />>
<br />> can be described as
being on the side of the Angels. We may dismiss such a policy as FUD or
even claim that it is illogical and unenforceable - as Stevan does - but we
cannot possibly describe it as angelic.
<br />>
<br />> David
<br />>
<br />>
<span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: medium;" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: medium;" class="Apple-style-span">
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<br />> <span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: medium;" class="Apple-style-span">
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<br />> David C Prosser
PhD
<br />> Executive Director, RLUK
<br />>
<br />> Tel: +44 (0) 20 7862
8436
<br />> Mob: +44 (0) 7825 454586
<br />> <a href="http://www.rluk.ac.uk/">www.rluk.ac.uk</a>
<br />>
<br />> RLUK Twitter
feed: RL_UK
<br />> Director's Twitter feed: RLUK_David
<br />>
<br />>
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<br />>
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Information Services Centre, King's College London, Chancery Lane,
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Charity no: 1026543
<br />>
<br />>
</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>
<br />>
<br />> On 2 May 2013, at 08:17, Andras Holl wrote:
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline" /><blockquote type="cite">
<br />>
<br />> Dear
Stevan,
<br />>
<br />> Regardless however right you are, Elsevier's play with words
succesfully
confuses
<br />> a large number of authors, who do not deposit because of
this.
<br />>
<br />>
Andras
<br />>
<br />> <font size="2"><b>On Wed, 1 May 2013 20:24:46 -0400, Stevan
Harnad
wrote</b>
<br />> > On Wed,
May 1, 2013 at 5:10 PM, BISSET J. <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:james.bisset@durham.ac.uk" target="_blank">james.bisset@durham.ac.uk</a>></span>
wrote:
<br />> >
<br />> >
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br />> >
<br />> > From our understanding of Elsevier policy this is not the case in
two
instances:
<br />> >
<br />> > 1) if the institution requires deposit in their institutional
repository
<br />> > 2) if the funder requires open
access.</blockquote>
<br />> >
<br />> >
Dear
James,
<br />> >
<br />> > Elsevier rights agreements state that authors
retains the right to make their final drafts OA immediately upon publication: no
embargo.
<br />> >
<br />> > I will answer your more detailed questions below, but let me
already give you a simple general answer from which all the specific ones can be
deduced.
<br />> >
<br />> > If a contract says <i>you have the right to do X</i>,
then it cannot go on to stipulate that you only have the "<i>right to
exercise"</i> your right to do X if you are not required to exercise it.
That is <a href="http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&lr=&q=harnad%20OR%20Harnad%20OR%20archivangelism+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&ie=UTF-8&tbm=blg&tbs=qdr:m&num=100&c2coff=1&safe=active#q=elsevier+double-talk+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&lr=&c2coff=1&safe=active&hl=en&tbm=blg&tbas=0&source=lnt&sa=X&ei=VpiBUeBI08fSAc-pgaAM&ved=0CBsQpwUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45921128,d.dmQ&fp=1dc003e2610cd254&biw=1181&bih=708">empty
double-talk,</a> and can and should be completely ignored as empty. A
right is
a right; you either have it or you
don't.
<br />> >
<br />> > Moreover, Elsevier authors do not need Elsevier's
permission to <i>deposit</i> in their IRs any more than they need Elsevier's
permission to go to the WC!
<br />> >
<br />> > The only thing at issue is <i>the
right to make the deposit immediately OA (i.e., free online)</i>. And Elsevier
(like Springer, and about 60% of all publishers) state that the author retains
the right to make the final draft OA immediately upon publication: no OA
embargo.
<br />> >
<br />> > So all authors with any sense should go ahead and exercise
that formally endorsed right that they
retain!
<br />> >
<br />> > <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br />> >
<br />> > I have an email from Elsevier today confirming that in either
of the two cases above, immediate deposit is permitted but open access is not
permitted until [after] an embargo
period...
<br />> >
</blockquote>
<br />> >
<br />> > Elsevier is just playing on words here. As I said, the right to
<i>deposit</i> is not at issue. Elsevier does not have any say over where I put
my final draft.
<br />> >
<br />> > The only right at issue is <i>the right to
make the deposit immediately OA (i.e., free
online)</i>.
<br />> >
<br />> >
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br />> >
<br />> > Additionally, Durham has reissued its mandate for self-archiving,
including a requirement that only those deposited (not necessarily open access)
can be used for consideration in promotion or probation (the 'how' this
will work us still being looked
at
- So this has not yet been registered
anywhere).
<br />> >
</blockquote>
<br />> >
<br />> > Bravo on adopting the optimal institutional OA mandate. Soon we
can
hope that the Durham mandate will be reinforced by the very same mandate from <a href="http://www.hefce.ac.uk/whatwedo/rsrch/rinfrastruct/openaccess/">HEFCE/REF</a>:
only articles whose final drafts were deposited in the author's
institutional repository immediately upon acceptance for publication will be
eligible for submission to the next REF
(2020).
<br />> >
<br />> > Institutional and HEFCE immediate-deposit mandates can then
mutually reinforce one another, and institutions will be able to devise a <a href="http://openaccess.eprints.org/index.php?/archives/1004-Harnad-Follow-Up-Comments-to-BIS-Select-Committee-on-Open-Access.html">simple
mechanism for monitoring and verifying
compliance</a>.
<br />> > <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br />> >
<br />> > Because we now mandate deposit, Elsevier have indicated we cannot
make
any publications open access until we sign an agreement with them - which
includes restricting access from immediate upon publication (as it was without a
mandate) to the embargo
periods
mentioned
above.
<br />> >
</blockquote>
<br />> >
<br />> > This is very
interesting: Have you asked yourself <i>why</i> Elsevier is asking for a second
agreement? Isn't the author's signed agreement enough, if it is really
sufficient to accord him a right yet prevent him from exercising that
right?
<br />> >
<br />> > Well obviously not, because of the double-talk I just
mentioned. In an agreement with the
clause
<br />> >
<br />> > <blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: medium none; padding: 0px;">
<br />> >
<br />> > <b>Clause C1:</b> "<i>You retain the right to do
X</i>"
</blockquote>
<br />> >
<br />> > followed by the clause
<br />> >
<br />> > <blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: medium none; padding: 0px;">
<br />> >
<br />> >
<b>Clause C2: </b>"<i>but you may not "exercise your right" to
do X if you are required to do
X</i>"</blockquote>
<br />> >
<br />> > you are
sanctioning a contradiction. Logically speaking (and contracts must obey logic
as surely as they must obey the law), this is pretty much the same as simply
saying:
<br />> >
<br />> >
<blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: medium none; padding: 0px;">
<br />> >
<br />> > <b>Clause C1:</b> "<i>You may do
X</i>"
</blockquote>
<br />> >
<br />> >
and
<br />> >
<br />> > <blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: medium none; padding: 0px;">
<br />> >
<br />> > <b>Clause C2: </b>"<i>You
may not do
X</i>."</blockquote>
<br />> >
<br />> > With a logical
contradiction, you can pretty much take your choice and do whatever you like,
because anything (and the opposite of anything) follows from a
contradiction.
<br />> >
<br />> > A good choice would be to read sequentially, follow Clause 1,
and simply ignore Clause 2, which just says the opposite. If challenged, cite
clause
1.
<br />> >
<br />> > And this is the real reason that Elsevier is not
comfortable with relying on its signed author rights agreement with its authors
as grounds for restraining them form doing what the retain the right to do if
they are required to do it. So they instead try to get a signature to yet
another agreement, from yet another party -- the university -- a further
agreement tjat would have the (failed) intended effect of the author rights
agreement: <i>The institution must sign that it may not require the author to
exercise his right to provide immediate
OA.</i>
<br />> >
<br />> > Solution? Simple: The university should not sign!
<br />> >
<br />> > If Elsevier really thinks its author agreement has already seen to
it
that mandated authors may not provide immediate OA if required by his
university, then there is no call for the university to sign a
thing.
<br />> >
<br />> > Of course, this is not quite the way Elsevier goes about
trying to get the university to sign: It proposes a contingency, in confidential
pricing negotiations, between the subscription deal it offers the university,
and whether or not they require immediate
OA.
<br />> >
<br />> > This would be unethical if it weren't so
ludicrous.
<br />> >
<br />> > Of course the university should not sign away its
right to mandate immediate-deposit because of a subscription-deal
contingency.
<br />> >
<br />> > But the solution is even simpler than that. Not only should
the university not sign any agreement with Elsevier over what it may or may not
require its researchers do, but the university should not worry too much about
embargoes; it should simply implement the "Almost OA" <a href="http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&lr=&q=harnad%20OR%20Harnad%20OR%20archivangelism+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&ie=UTF-8&tbm=blg&tbs=qdr:m&num=100&c2coff=1&safe=active#q=Button+blogurl:http://openaccess.eprints.org/&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&safe=active&tbm=blg&tbas=0&source=lnt&sa=X&ei=HnU5UcDCFIyq0AGWhIHQAw&ved=0CBwQpwUoAA&fp=1&biw=1288&bih=758&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&cad=b&sei=5KGBUb2GD6Pm0gGa24HoDw">email-eprint-request
Button</a>.
<br />> >
<br />> > That way not only will the university's immediate-deposit
mandate (with the help of the HEFCE/REF immediate-deposit mandate) ensure that
all final drafts are immediately deposited and that at least 60% of those
immediate-deposits (including all Elsevier deposits!) will be made immediately
OA. But, in addition, even the those immediate-deposits that are from from the
40% of journals -- which (unlike Springer and Elsevier and APS and IOP and all
the other publishers who are on the Side if the angels) try to embargo OA --
will be made "Almost OA", via the
Button.
<br />> >
<br />> > And with the help of the eprint Button, the ID/OA mandate will
go on to make OA embargoes as ineffectual as Clause 2, once the
immediate-deposit mandate becomes
universal.
<br />> >
<br />> > And a word about
"systematicity": Systematically duplicating the contents of a journal
would mean duplicating all of its contents. But a single institution just
provides a tiny (and unsystematic) fraction of any journal's
contents.
<br />> >
<br />> > Globally mandated OA will be another story: But Elsevier
cannot hope to persuade all universities worldwide to desist from mandating OA!
(And it is noteworthy that Elsevier is not even trying to get research funders
to sign "agreements" not mandate OA, or to extend OA embargoes;
Elsevier's strategy there is lobbying, since they don't have the
subscription discount carrot with which it lures naive universities into signing
over their mandating rights in exchange for a better subscription
Big-Deal.
<br />> >
<br />> > <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br />> >
<br />> > However, if Alicia is indicating this new stance is a move away
from
that which I was told by Elsevier earlier today, and is still less than clearly
indicated on their web pages (which indicate an author can comply by
self-archiving, but then go on
to
list embargo periods which do not meet RCUK policy) then that is great
news.
<br />> >
</blockquote>
<br />> >
<br />> > Alicia is just re-stating the
Clause 1. Take her at her
word.
<br />> >
<br />> > Best
wishes,
<br />> >
<br />> >
Stevan
<br />> >
<br />> > <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br />> >
<br />> >
On 1 May 2013, at 14:49, "Stevan Harnad" <<a href="mailto:amsciforum@gmail.com" target="_blank">amsciforum@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:
<br />> >
<br />> >
<blockquote type="cite">
<br />> >
<br />> >
<a href="https://twitter.com/wisealic" style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank"><strong style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Alicia Wise</strong> <span style="font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(187, 187, 187);">@</s><b>wisealic</b></span></a><small style="font-size: 12px; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; margin-top: 1px;"><a href="https://twitter.com/wisealic/status/329287890641252352" title="12:35 PM -
30 Apr 13" style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">20h</a></small>
<br />> >
<a href="https://twitter.com/AmSciForum" dir="ltr" style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank"><s style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(128, 226, 147);">@</s><b>AmSciForum</b></a>
Stevan -
Elsevier's
<a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23oa&src=hash" dir="ltr" style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">
<s style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(128, 226, 147);">#</s><b>oa</b></a>
agreement with RCUK, including gold & green options, is described here:<a href="http://t.co/s8faOyHfEE" title="http://www.elsevier.com/about/publishing-guidelines/policies/funding-body-agreements/research-councils-uk" dir="ltr" rel="nofollow" style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank"><span style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none; font-size: 0px; line-height: 0;">
http://www.</span><span style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;">elsevier.com/about/publishi</span><span style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none; font-size: 0px; line-height: 0;">ng-guidelines/policies/funding-body-agreements/research-councils-uk</span><span style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;"><span style="font-size: 0px; line-height: 0;">
</span>…</span></a>
<br />> >
<br />> > <a href="https://twitter.com/AmSciForum" style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank"><strong style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Stevan Harnad</strong> <span style="font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(187, 187, 187);">@</s><b>AmSciForum</b></span></a><small style="font-size: 12px; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; margin-top: 1px;"><a href="https://twitter.com/AmSciForum/status/329457762482397185" title="11:50 PM
- 30 Apr 13" style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">8h</a></small>
<br />> > <a href="https://twitter.com/wisealic" dir="ltr" style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank"><s style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(128, 226, 147);">@</s><b>wisealic</b></a>
Simple
Question:
Is/isn't Elsevier-like Springer-still Green on immediate, unembargoed <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23oa&src=hash" dir="ltr" style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">
<s style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(128, 226, 147);">#</s><b>oa</b></a>
self-archiving?
<a href="http://t.co/Jd0DTucqng" title="http://j.mp/11B5gcg" dir="ltr" rel="nofollow" style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank"> <span style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none; font-size: 0px; line-height: 0;">http://</span><span style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;">j.mp/11B5gcg</span><font color="#2ccf4c"><span style="font-size: 0px; line-height: 0;"></span></font><span style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;"><span style="font-size: 0px; line-height: 0;">
</span></span></a>
<br />> >
<br />> > <a href="https://twitter.com/wisealic" style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank"><strong style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Alicia Wise</strong> <span style="font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(187, 187, 187);">@</s><b>wisealic</b></span></a><small style="font-size: 12px; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; margin-top: 1px;"><a href="https://twitter.com/wisealic/status/329587843716509696" title="8:27 AM - 1
May 13" style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">19m</a></small>
<br />> > <a href="https://twitter.com/AmSciForum" dir="ltr" style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank"><s style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(128, 226, 147);">@</s><b>AmSciForum</b></a>
<b>yes,
Elsevier
endorses immediate self-archiving of accepted final drafts free for all on the
web immediately upon
acceptance.</b>
<br />> >
<br />> > <a href="https://twitter.com/AmSciForum" style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank"><strong style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Stevan Harnad</strong> <span style="font-size: 12px; direction: ltr;"><s style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(187, 187, 187);">@</s><b>AmSciForum</b></span></a><small style="font-size: 12px; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); float: right; margin-top: 1px;"><a href="https://twitter.com/AmSciForum/status/329591992843640833" title="8:43 AM -
1 May 13" style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">3m</a></small>
<br />> > <a href="https://twitter.com/wisealic" dir="ltr" style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank"><s style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(128, 226, 147);">@</s><b>wisealic</b></a>
Thanks Alicia. Then Elsevier remains on Side of the Angels & I will
continue to attest to
that!
<a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23oa&src=hash" dir="ltr" style="color: rgb(44, 207, 76); text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">
</a></blockquote></blockquote>
<br />>
<br />>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br />>
Andras Holl / Holl Andras
e-mail: <a href="mailto:holl@konkoly.hu">holl@konkoly.hu</a>
<br />>
Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI Tel.: +36 1 3919368 Fax:
+36 1 2754668
<br />>
IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, Budapest, Hungary
<br />>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br />>
<br />>
</font>
<span><ATT00001..txt></span></blockquote>
<br />
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<br />
Andras Holl / Holl Andras
e-mail: holl@konkoly.hu
<br />
Konkoly Observatory / MTA CsFK CsI Tel.: +36 1 3919368 Fax:
+36 1 2754668
<br />
IT manager / Szamitastechn. rendszervez. Mail: H1525 POBox 67, Budapest, Hungary
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