<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">See brief comments below. Also adding Lewis Hyde who joins me in the proposed intervention, and bccing Charlie Nesson and our other lawyers. (Allo, Bernard! Do you remember me from your Harvard days?)<div><br><div><div>On Apr 15, 2009, at 2:22 PM, Bernard Lang wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><br>Note : this is Bcc copied to Harry Lewis and James Grimmelmann, since<br>it was not clear to me that using their email visibly on the list was OK.<br><br>apologies for the style : I am short on time.<br><br><br>Hi,<br><br>I tried to react quickly to the post on the BOAI list about the Google<br>Book Search settlement.<br><br>Since then, I have been reading a bit more, and particularly some of<br>the analysis by James Grimmelmann (though honestly, I had only time to<br>scan it quickly).<br><br>One important point is not fully clear to me : can orphan work (and/or<br>out-of-print books) be made available by Google or anyone else in<br>digital form according to the proposed settlement ? (no time yet to<br>read the full 141 pages). Apparently yes (can someone confirm ?) from<br>what I read in<br><a href="http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10076948-38.html">http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10076948-38.html</a> <br>This is not fair use by any standard, and a clear violation of<br>exclusive rights.</div></blockquote><div><br></div>Yes and yes. As the <a href="http://www.bitsbook.com/2009/04/in-which-we-seek-to-intervene-in-the-google-books-settlement/">letter seeking intervention</a> sent on behalf of me, Lewis Hyde, and the Open Access Trust says, "<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; ">The parties in this case propose to change this status quo by clarifying that the use of orphaned works is, indeed, actionable copyright infringement; vesting in Google a monopoly in the lawful use of orphaned works; and dividing between themselves the proceeds of this monopoly."</span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Trebuchet MS'" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px;"><br></span></font><blockquote type="cite"><div><br><br>If it is not allowed. Is there a point is being able to search books<br>that are essentially unavailable anyway ?<br><br>Whatever, what Google is allowed to do is apparently not known to be<br>in the fair-use range. This is actually the purpose of the settlement:<br>not to find out.<br><br>But if it is not fair-use, the whole settlement in an infringement on<br>the exclusive rights of the orphan work rightholders. And I do not<br>understand how a court can allow on a settlement of this issue without<br>consent of the rightholders. My guess from what I read is that this<br>power of the court results from the nature of class actions (which<br>would mean that all authors are involved, whether or not they<br>participate - is that correct ? - I know little of class actions).<br>This is specific to US judicial system, but cannot in any way exempt<br>the US judicial system from the international treaties.<br><br>If the settlement is only fair use, it is useless. If not, it must<br>necessarily be a new category of "exceptions and limitations", which<br>has to pass the 3 steps test of the various treaties. Is that the case?<br><a href="http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/berne/trtdocs_wo001.html#P140_25350">http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/berne/trtdocs_wo001.html#P140_25350</a><br>http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/wct/trtdocs_wo033.html#P83_10885<br>http://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/27-trips_04_e.htm#article13<br><br>It is actually quite disputable whether for profit exploitation of<br>digital versions pass this test.</div></blockquote><div><br></div>This is an angle I certainly don't know anything about, which is why I am sharing your comments.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><br><br>But whatever the answer is, exceptions or limitations cannot be in<br>favour of specific parties. They have to aply to everyone, and it<br>seems not to be the case with this settlement, which is rightly one of<br>the major criticisms.<br><br>My experience with the orphan works issue is that several parties want<br>to control orphan works for their own benefits (most notably<br>collective copyright management organizations), at the expense of the<br>public increasingly plagued with them because of ever longer copyright<br>(which actually works against the interests of living authors, but<br>that is another issue). This sound pretty much like some guys get<br>what they want cheaply, allowing for more postponement of a proper<br>settlement of the orphan works issue.<br><br><br>I do understand the benefits to be had from this particular<br>settlement. I am very concerned that by being lured by some immediate<br>benefits, the public will lose considerably on the longer term, if we<br>compare this with a proper global settlement of the whole issue via<br>the Orphan Works Act, which is - in my opinion - a very good proposal.<br><br>If Google can sell orphan works, accepting this settlement will<br>probably kill for good the Orphan Works Act. because it gives<br>collective rights management organizations exactly what they want :<br>force people to pay for orphan work, even if the authors will never<br>show up, or even if the authors are actually opposed to it (they are<br>no available to say so).<br><br>And I do believe that international treaties may be the way to either<br>stop the settlement, or modify it, thus making it fairer and actually<br>closer to the Orphan Works Act.<br><br>But my informed opinion is that it should not be accepted if it<br>involve full exploitation of orphan works, such as selling orphan<br>works for a compulsory fee. And I also think it goes against<br>international treaties.<br><br>BTW, is anyone defending the public and the unavailable authors in<br>this trial.</div></blockquote><div><br></div>If you read the brief letter seeking to intervene, linked to above and attached below as a PDF, that is a way of describing the reason for our intervention.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><br><br>In any case, it will cause considerable negative international<br>reaction, all the more if it give excessive/exclusive advantages to<br>Google.<br><br>I hope I have been clear and on topic. I unfortunately lack time to<br>get into this in depth in the whole issue within te alloted time frame<br>(end of April from what I understand). And I am used to discussing<br>these issues only from a French legal viewpoint. However, I would be<br>glad to discuss specifics if anyone is interested.<br><br>cordialement<br><br>Bernard Lang<br><br>please write preferably to my Cc address above at datcha.net<br><br>* Bernard Lang <<a href="mailto:Bernard.Lang@inria.fr">Bernard.Lang@inria.fr</a>> note le 15-04-09 :<br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Hi,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I was not aware of these events, which percolate only now to my far<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">away country. Too bad, because I have been leading a local fight<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">against attempts to take undue control of orphan works in Europe, and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">wrote a report on the issue (in French ... but I am quite willing to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">repeat into English the essential points, or whatever is deemed<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">useful).<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://www.datcha.net/orphan/oeuvres-orphelines-BLang.pdf">http://www.datcha.net/orphan/oeuvres-orphelines-BLang.pdf</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">This paper is actually an annex to an official report (that has<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">opposite conclusions - what do you expect ?)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://www.cspla.culture.gouv.fr/CONTENU/rapoeuvor08.pdf">http://www.cspla.culture.gouv.fr/CONTENU/rapoeuvor08.pdf</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I have a page of references on the topic of orphan works, in case it<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">can help :<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://www.datcha.net/orphan/">http://www.datcha.net/orphan/</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I am reading what is available on the US issue raised here (by the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">previous message) to see whether my own experience and work on the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">topic can be of any help. But anyone interested can write directly to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">me at <a href="mailto:bernard.Lang@datcha.net">bernard.Lang@datcha.net</a> (preferably)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">The recent articles I have been reading so far are moderately helpful<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">... I am looking for one that explains clearly the nature of the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">settlement. I find it strange that anyone can settle on behalf of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">unreachable rightholders, even with the help of a court ... this seems<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">incompatible with international treaties. The USA may have a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">different legal system than my country, but international treaties are<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the same.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Cordialement<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Bernard Lang<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">P.S.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Actually, I tried to raise concern regarding orphan works in the open<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">access community, about 15 month ago, even though things seemed then<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">in a better shape in the USA with the (quite good) Orphan Work Act<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">proposal which apparently it fell through. Trying not to spam<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">everyone, I did it only on Stevan Harnad list, not on the BOAI list.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">With very little success:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:10:41 +0200<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> From: Bernard Lang <<a href="mailto:Bernard.Lang@inria.fr">Bernard.Lang@inria.fr</a>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Subject: Orphan works<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> To: <a href="mailto:AMERICAN-SCIENTIST-OPEN-ACCESS-FORUM@LISTSERVER.SIGMAXI.ORG">AMERICAN-SCIENTIST-OPEN-ACCESS-FORUM@LISTSERVER.SIGMAXI.ORG</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> The issue of Orphan Works is more and more discussed in various places.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Orphan works are works whose right holders cannot be located, for<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> example to ask permission to use their work.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Few countries have a legislation on orphan works, but many are<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> preparing some.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> I do not recall that the issue has been discussed on this list, and it<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> is not immediately clear whether it should.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> However, my own knowledge of the issue and of some current proposals<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> lead me to believe that we should pay attention to it. One proposal I<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> know of would, for example, place any orphan work in the custody on<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> collective copyright management. And collective management<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> organizations are not exactly the best friends of open archives.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Indeed, the proposal I have in mind is strongly pushed by publisher<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> associations, and did reach a fairly high political level.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> More generally, there are many people who consider that making<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> anything available for free (and devoid of advertising) should be<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> somehow forbidden, and be considered a threat to free market,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> democracy, and other free world values. I am unfortunately not<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> joking.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Questions :<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> - do you know whether the issue is raised in the context of open-access ?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> - where ?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> - should it be discussed, and where or how ?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Bernard Lang<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">No answer, except for a commercial ad, and Stevan Harnad claim that:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> The question of orphan works is interesting and important, but,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> like so many interesting and important side-issues (1) it is not<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> central to Open Access, (2) it risks becoming yet another<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> distraction from Open Access, and (3) if we can just stay focused<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> on providing Open Access (by self-archiving, and mandating the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> self-archiving of the current refereed journal literature), that<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Open Access itself will be the greatest asset to ensuring that<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> orphan works are, in their turn, made Open Access wherever<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> possible. ...<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and one more positive from Klaus Graf <<a href="mailto:klausgraf@googlemail.com">klausgraf@googlemail.com</a>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">citing Peter Suber and giving also some references:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> The best summary of the orphans problem which has been written in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> German is from Rainer Kuhlen in his new book "Erfolgreiches<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Scheitern" 2008 (pp. 315 sqq.). Kuhlen has also large chapters on<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Open Access he supports as speaker of the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Urheberrechtsbuendnis. The book is online at:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://www.inf-wiss.uni-konstanz.de/RK2008_ONLINE/node/18">http://www.inf-wiss.uni-konstanz.de/RK2008_ONLINE/node/18</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> More information on orphans in German and English in my weblog:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://archiv.twoday.net/search?q=verwaist">http://archiv.twoday.net/search?q=verwaist</a> german<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://archiv.twoday.net/search?q=orphan">http://archiv.twoday.net/search?q=orphan</a> english and german<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I did try again :<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:28:48 +0200<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> From: Bernard Lang <<a href="mailto:Bernard.Lang@inria.fr">Bernard.Lang@inria.fr</a>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Subject: Re: Nihil obstat + orphan works<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> BTW, since I am talking. Is there an interest in orphan works on this<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> list. I am asking because many scientific publications have a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> potential to become orphan works : since the author does not get<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> royalties, he has no incentive to leave personal information to be<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> tracked after he ceases to be an active professional.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> I am asking because, though the proposed legislation on orphan works<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> seems rather well designed in the USA, there are very different<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> proposals in Europe that may reveal dangerous. In a nutshell, orphan<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> works would be managed by collective management organizations mostly<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> controled by publishers. Where that would lead us is anyone's guess.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Bernard Lang<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">which did not receive a single reply.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">* Carolina Rossini <<a href="mailto:carolina.rossini@gmail.com">carolina.rossini@gmail.com</a>> note le 14-04-09 :<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://openeducationnews.org/">http://openeducationnews.org/</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">A2K and orphaned work: the rise of the Open Access Trust<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Inc<<a href="http://openeducationnews.org/2009/04/14/a2k-and-orphaned-work-the-rise-of-the-open-access-trust-inc/">http://openeducationnews.org/2009/04/14/a2k-and-orphaned-work-the-rise-of-the-open-access-trust-inc/</a>>by<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Carolina Rossini<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">April 14, 2009 · No Comments<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><<a href="http://openeducationnews.org/2009/04/14/a2k-and-orphaned-work-the-rise-of-the-open-access-trust-inc/#respond">http://openeducationnews.org/2009/04/14/a2k-and-orphaned-work-the-rise-of-the-open-access-trust-inc/#respond</a>><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On April, 13 a group of professors lead by Charles Nesson, Lewis Hyde and<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Harry Lewis requested a pre-motion conference to Judge Denny Chin seeking to<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">file a motion to intervene in the case *Authors Guild v. Google.*<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">These scholars represent the community of readers, scholars, and teachers<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">who use orphaned works. Orphaned works are works under copyright, but with<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">a copyright holder who has died, cannot be found, or otherwise has<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">abandoned his work. In the status quo, users like us and commercial users<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">like Google can and do use orphaned works, although we do so against a<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">backdrop of potential legal liability should the owner of an orphaned work<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">later emerge.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">........<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">........<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">........<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">-- <br></blockquote><br><br>-- <br> Après la bulle Internet, la bulle financière ...<br> Et bientôt la bulle des brevets<br> <a href="http://www.strategie.gouv.fr/revue/IMG/pdf/article_HS7RL2.pdf">http://www.strategie.gouv.fr/revue/IMG/pdf/article_HS7RL2.pdf</a><br> <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-kahin/the-patent-bubble_b_129232.html">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-kahin/the-patent-bubble_b_129232.html</a><br> la gestion des catastrophes comme principe de gouvernement<br><br><a href="mailto:Bernard.Lang@inria.fr">Bernard.Lang@inria.fr</a> ,_ /\o \o/ Tel +33 1 3963 5644<br><a href="http://bat8.inria.fr/~lang/">http://bat8.inria.fr/~lang/</a> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Fax +33 1 3963 5469<br> INRIA / B.P. 105 / 78153 Le Chesnay CEDEX / France<br> Je n'exprime que mon opinion - I express only my opinion<br></div></blockquote></div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Harry R. Lewis</font></p><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Gordon McKay Professor of Computer Science </font></p><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~lewis/">http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~lewis/</a>,</p><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://bitsbook.com">http://bitsbook.com</a></p></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></div></span></div></span></div></div></body></html>